Where have all the young uns gone

[HOCOLITE]

Looked at Chasers results for the weekend. No JM1 1 male on JW1, so I thought ah ha all doning the white because regional courses are expensive, but only 4/5 on white. I know it's half term and it had been cold but I feel this is a trend. I can't substantiates it with figures but just a feeling from studying junior results.

[SeanC]

Although just one example, scanning the results of our regional event, it had roughly half the number of juniors in 2006 compared to 2002. Same area, similar time of year.

A couple of speculations.

1. As the age profile of adult orienteers has aged, its not surprising there are less juniors. More orienteers are over 50's where the young uns have left home?

2. You have to catch them younger these days as we're competing with more attractions/sports than 20 years ago and the older juniors spend less time doing sport and more time earning money in weekend jobs. Orienteering events arent always that friendly to families with younger children.

A good time for initiatives to bring more families into the sport? How's MADO doing these days?

[sgb]

You have to catch them younger these days as we're competing with more attractions/sports than 20 years ago and the older juniors spend less time doing sport and more time earning money in weekend jobs.

Or, perversely, you have to catch 'em older these days as it's students who have their own motivation to attend events, relatively large amounts of free time etc (and often their own transport). Given that there are very few universities with active orienteering clubs, should local clubs try to push the sport as a new, exciting way of having fun (much as orienteering must have been introduced)!

I expect that in reality, both approaches are needed: a focus on younger kids and also older students who are still dependent on having things organised for them to some extent but can become involved far more quickly.

[MarkM]

Remember JM/W1 is equivalent to the old M/W10B relatively few enter that class anyway

[HOCOLITE]

Relatively few was far more when my youngsters came into the sport than now. They usually had competition.

[SeanC]

Sgb wrote

"Or, perversely, you have to catch 'em older these days as it's students who have their own motivation to attend events, relatively large amounts of free time etc (and often their own transport). Given that there are very few universities with active orienteering clubs, should local clubs try to push the sport as a new, exciting way of having fun (much as orienteering must have been introduced)! "

yes, that's a fair point. There are lots of groups you could attract to boost the sports numbers, and students have been known to have children at some point in their lives.

However the link between the health of university orienteering and the health of junior orienteering must be strong. Back in the 80's when there were comparatively large numbers of juniors there were much more uni orienteering clubs. My own uni, not a traditional orienteering uni, relied on a handful students who were experienced orienteers as juniors. They were the keener ones who went to most events, coached the beginners and ran the club. The ones that joined because they had tried orienteering at school or in the scouts tended to be less keen and contributed less, although some of these became o addicts by the time they left.

I cant see how a club could easily kick start a local uni orienteering club without a few experienced juniors joining that uni and doing most of the work. However for existing uni clubs, or if students want to start a uni club I think this is where the outside o community should help. But should it be the local club? This seems like ideal work for a specialist BOF development officer who could build up experience aiding uni clubs. That's if we were willing to fund such a post.

[awk]

Hi Hocolite

In 1999, across 49 badge events I surveyed throughout Britain, the average number of competitors in M10B was 1.4. 19 (39%) of those events had 0 M10Bs taking part.

I've just taken a look at 2006 events. There are 39 on the BOF results list. The average number of competitors on JM1 (the equivalent of M10B) was 2.8; 8 (21%) of the events had 0 competitors on JM1.

What is noticeable is that of the 4 WM badge events listed, 3 had zero JM1s and one had 1 (in 1999 there were 6 regional events in WM - 1 had zero, 3 had two, 1 had three and 1 had four).

Whilst the numbers are still by no means satisfactory, what I think you are seeing may be a more localised than national issue.

[HOCOLITE]

I was thinking Idly(as you do) that there are a large number of primary school kids doing white courses at schools events why is the transition hard......I think transport out of locality. What if YBT had a white course specifically for primary school children(even better if it could be restricted to those new to the sport or those clubs have recruited from schools) then it might bridge the gap and encourage clubs to actively recruit these kids and also give these kids a prestigious event to target. I know it's a bit like the youth thing that was at World Cup in Battersea but there was no club incentive there.

[awk]

Possibly, but personally I think there's more than enough at this national level at present. I don't see a great and burning need to ship more (and younger) children round the country, when they can get more than enough experience closer to home. They need to be orienteering regularly not travelling. Regions need their own 'prestige' events.

On the YBT front, as a club we have a fair number of primary age youngsters, but we could get virtually none to travel to the YBT final, because parents felt it was too far on top of everything else. I have a strong sympathy with that: I did not take a team to the British Schools this year because I felt it was too far to travel.

[graeme]

My own uni, not a traditional orienteering uni, relied on a handful students who were experienced orienteers as juniors. They were the keener ones who went to most events, coached the beginners and ran the club.

...and mine was absolutely the opposite. We had a nucleus of beginners, mainly with a running background (myself included), and a rather small number of "experienced juniors". The first group
went to local events, met to go jogging etc (and within 5 years about 20 of us had gone from beginner to M21E!). The second group vanished to far-flung squad activities, wanted to attend high quality faraway events with their old friends and were seldom seen locally.

[/quote]

[Blanka]

we could get virtually none to travel to the YBT final, because parents felt it was too far on top of everything else. I have a strong sympathy with that: I did not take a team to the British Schools this year because I felt it was too far to travel.

I can see that the older juniors have lots of events they 'have' to attend - selection races, championships, etc., but for the primary school-kids the yellow course in club events - YBT, PP's - are pretty much the only ones apart from the BSOC. It seems like that's relatively few weekends to me?

[seabird]

In years gone by I have transported juniors running yellow standard every bit as far as this years YBT Final. Nevertheless I think it's worth reminding ourselves that our juniors should have a lot more to fill their lives than just orienteering events. I hope that is what awk is referring to when he says "on top of everything else".

I have noticed that some juniors (but not at yellow standard) are travelling equally long distances for city races, mountain races and the like while eschewing some team events. It would be a great shame if that was what awk meant by "on top of everything else".

[awk]

"On top of everything else" literally meant just that: both the rest of the orienteering calendar and other activities. All too often we forget that there is a life beyond orienteering, and should be so, especially for juniors. It was not a criticism of the current orienteering calendar (although I do think it does get overloaded with 'commitment' events), but Hocolite was talking of adding yet more to the calendar at national level, and I don't think that's appropriate for M/W10-s who should largely be developing their skills much more locally (she's talking white standard remember!). That's where the development is really needed.

As for those other more experienced juniors, seabird, I do agree it's a pity that team events are sometimes eschewed for other events, but....

Your posting seems to imply that they are 'lesser' events against which team competitions should naturally be preferred. To me your list covers a great variety of remarkably, and perhaps more, valuable experiences in developing both one's orienteering and personal self, whether junior or senior (especially when one considers the other activities etc. that go with them). As a parent, and talking to other parents in similar positions, those choices are not lightly made.

[awk]

Going back to the original question raised: Hocolite, you talk about those doing white at schools events not transferring to regional events. So, first question, what are the numbers at these school events? Then, what about the intermediate step, i.e. participation on white district events and, indeed, how often are these events organised?

I know that MADO events and OD informals start at Yellow - do those attending these events see running White at a regional/district event as a step backwards?

In other words, what are the numbers like lower down the scale of events on white, and what progression routes are there (including incentives and promotion)? I suspect this will have more influence on numbers and patterns at regional events than promoting a white course at the YBT.

[seabird]

"Your posting seems to imply that they are 'lesser' events against which team competitions should naturally be preferred. To me your list covers a great variety of remarkably, and perhaps more, valuable experiences in developing both one's orienteering and personal self, whether junior or senior (especially when one considers the other activities etc. that go with them). As a parent, and talking to other parents in similar positions, those choices are not lightly made.

I guess as a team manager I do put a greater emphasis on the team events. The majority of the orienteering calendar is about individual achievement, and I think there is great importance for an individual junior's personal development to sublimate this within team identity and goals on the few occasions when this is asked.

I sympathise greatly with the urge to also experience a wider range of events.

Mrs H has written many times of the almost manic efforts required by parents to get their off-spring to all the events and competitions specifically arranged for juniors - let alone the add-ons like city races etc. The overload on juniors and parents can be considerable. I know my orienteering life feels much calmer now I am beyond the parenting role, and no longer burning up excessive distances on the tarmac on a regular basis, but rather primarily sticking to more local events.

Sadly something has to give. I appreciate that often the leading juniors are asked in team events to run at a level which does not particularly challenge their ability, which is often a factor in their electing to run in individual events instead.