Planning for juniors

[David_Young]

I'd like to urge planners to be really careful about planning courses for younger juniors. Yesterday at the regional event at Hindleap Warren my daughter (JW2) couldn't figure out the way to the first control, and retired very upset. Normally she's fine on yellow courses or the equivalent and she's done quite a few regional and national events, so something was different.

From her map, I noticed that there was a route choice to the first control (you could go along the ride and turn left, or along a path and turn right). This is against the guidelines, which say there should be no route choice at TD2, including at the start. In addition, she got her map just before the start, the same as everyone else, but rule 8.2.4 says that maps at this level should be available ahead of the start.

I can't be certain that these things are what caused the problem, but they probably contributed. I'm sorry this sounds like a moan at the planners/organisers - so I perhaps I should add that I thought the course I did was great - but it really is important to stick accurately to the guidelines, and in their spirit check that there is a very obvious route away from the start at TD1 and 2.

[NeilC]

All too common a problem I'm afraid David (that and having the start on a junction). If you read the minutes of the recent rules group meeting on the BOF website you will see this is a national problem and ways are being considered to reduce this happening too often. Barry Elkington has written a series of articles on planning juinor courses for FOCUS magazine which will hopefully be widely read, and should be available on the revised BOF website in the future. We are also looking at ways of formally feeding back examples of good and bad practice to the organising club.

Allowing the viewing of white and yellow courses in the pre-start is highly recommended but not compulsory - for whatever reasons some clubs prefer not to do this.

[SIman]

The guidelines for planners for next summer's Scottish 6 Day Event have just been ammended slightly to say:

Ensure there is no route choice for the younger competitors from the White Start i.e. courses from this start for the younger competitors should follow the same route to their first controls. In particular, the start set-up should point children in the correct direction.

Yet another reason to come. (btw Entries are now open here.)

[Gross]

[quote="David_Young"In addition, she got her map just before the start, the same as everyone else, but rule 8.2.4 says that maps at this level should be available ahead of the start.

but it really is important to stick accurately to the guidelines, and in their spirit check that there is a very obvious route away from the start at TD1 and 2.[/quote]

This isn't a planning problem... it's a controlling problem. The event was compromised by poor standards of controling.

What we need is some kind of controlling of controllers... nothing ever happens to bad controllers... when was the last time someone was downgraded... never

[David_Young]

Neil, SIman and Gross - thanks for your replies. I'm greatly reassured by them - especially the fact that achieving consistent planning of junior courses is seen as important centrally.

And it's worth saying that the bad experience last weekend is actually rather rare (which I suppose is why I felt moved to write about it) - in general, my daughter's orienteering experiences have been excellent ones, and in case anyone reading is new to orienteering and I have sown any doubt, it is a brilliant sport for children in all kinds of ways.

[RobL]

Allowing the viewing of white and yellow courses in the pre-start is highly recommended but not compulsory - for whatever reasons some clubs prefer not to do this.

I'm not sure that this is right. Edward has competed in 25 regional events and I have shown a copy of the rules concerning this issue at 10-12 of these to ensure that the start is handled properly. It would never have been reasonable for me to send a 7 year old off on a course that neither he nor I had seen beforehand.

8.2.4 At Level 3 Events and below, courses planned to TD 1 and 2 should be made available to competitors in advance of their start time.

[NeilC]

There is a great significance in the use of the words "should" and "shall" in the rules.

[RJ]

Two issues here.

At C3 and above one should expect that the competitors are not novice, have done quite a few courses of the appropriate standard, and are reasonably capable. Not an unreasonable assumption, and something that should be aimed for. C3s should not be for the novice! Those parents who take their children to an event of this standard, knowing they are insufficiently practiced should not blame the system, or expect a level of preparation before the start beyond that outlined below.

So it is appropriate that the competitor can see the map and course, say, in the start lane for the three minutes before starting. With a parent or coach present????? Having the map for longer, for example, at registration, is hardly fair to the TD1/2 competitor or to the other competitors who get to look at it before their start.

Secondly, at events of C4 and below it is appropriate that TD1/2 competitors see the map, study it, talked around the course by a parent or coach, be completely at ease with the task they are about to complete. Getting the map at registration is a must. This has been common practice at Cumbrian events for quite some years.

[SeanC]

RJ wrote

"C3s should not be for the novice! Those parents who take their children to an event of this standard, knowing they are insufficiently practiced should not blame the system, or expect a level of preparation before the start beyond that outlined below. "

Are you being provocative RJ?

- All the C3's in my area have novice courses for beginners and young juniors.
- Do we want Rob to leave Edward at home and only take his older brother?
- Should we tell Rob and his family to stick to local events until Edward is older? Lucky for Rob there are local events most weeks in Sussex but he wouldnt be so lucky anywhere else in the south east.
- By discussing the map with Edward before the start Rob, is preparing him for the event. I think we should be encouraging this, it seems a great idea.

[Snail]

I think there is some ambiguity over what rule 8.2.4 is trying to achieve.

I thought that it was introduced (at least partly) to avoid juniors on TD1/2 course getting "swept up" by the enthusiasm of other competitors rushing off from the start.

Hence (with my controller's hat on) I encourage clubs to make them available in the start boxes, ie at least 1 minute and up to 3-4 minutes prior to the start.

This gives the competitor the opportunity to think about the route to the first control before being influenced by others starting at the same time - but doesn't really permit discussion with parents.

[RJ]

Are you being provocative RJ?

If I was taking my eight year old to the nearest ice rink to introduce him to ice skating... it wouldn't be on a Saturday afternoon with a hundred other participants on the ice. I would arrange for the introduction to the sport to be managed and appropriately incremental.

Same with going to a C3... so long as the child is adequately prepared for the activity, particularly at this level... fine. There are levels of novice... a complete beginner.... definitely not.... it just isn't the appropriate starting point.

Novice courses at C3s are usually colour coded, so are appropriately graded.

[RobL]

The BOF planning guidelines for regional events are quite clear on this matter:

..In addition, there should be an opportunity for competitors on TD 1 and TD 2 courses to inspect their courses (and even discuss them with their parents) before they start. This could be achieved by making these courses available in the start lane or in the pre-start area. See Rule 8.2.4.

[RobL]

There is a great significance in the use of the words "should" and "shall" in the rules.

Hi Neil, Of course you are absolutely right:

1.4 Interpretation
1.4.1 The word ‘shall’ is to be treated as a command in all circumstances.
1.4.2 The word ‘should’ is a recommendation which competitors and officials will endeavour
to comply with.
1.4.3 Any dispute as to the interpretation

Perhaps it's hard though to imagine a situation where officials would justifiably fail in an endeavour to make the map available according to 8.2.4 and the Reginal Planning Guidelines (?)

[SeanC]

I cant buy RJ's argument. Most C3's put on yellow or white course so if they're not aimed at beginners who are they aimed at? The shortest junior courses are normally just the white or yellow course arent they?

Anyway Edward isn't a complete beginner, he is in fact an experienced orienteering film star (see recent threads)! It's just that he's 7 and might need a little bit of reassurance by his dad at the start of his white course to check that he is going in the right direction, and to check that the course isnt too hard for him and he doesnt end up in tears. I cant see that this is really a problem.

Of course we could tell Edward to come back in 3 years time when he's bigger, but he might be doing some other sport that's more accommodating by then

Come on RJ, it's Christmas! Lets let the 7 year olds come to our C3 events!

[RJ]

Edward isn't a complete beginner, he is in fact an experienced orienteering film star.....

So.... no problems there.... entirely consistent with the guidelines... when they are adhered to.

What to do about my five year old daughter..... should I bring her along to the next regional C3?

I think you will find that most clubs have a perfectly adequate junior training/coaching structure that allows the new and inexperienced juniors to gain all the skills they need before they have to attend a C3. We are probably argueing about a hypothetical situation that doesn't exist.

Enough already!