The junior forum has got this as a current thread at present, and there's a pretty clear view that the vast majority of those contributing don't like the idea.
I totally respect that view, but would like to offer the explanation why, rightly or wrongly, the opportunity to put on a separate championship was first put forward (and mea culpa, I was one of those who did that), and perhaps get this aired more broadly.
The problem has always been that the BOC has been fixed up by the Fixtures Committee, who in turn are dependent on the host regional association for that year. As a result, year after year, some fairly lousy dates and/or venues are chosen. Thus, last year it was held in mid-May, with the result that M/W18 classes had less than half the usual entry, the BOC couldn't be used as a selection race (so we could have a situation where a British Champion doesn't get selected for a tour/team. Unlikely, but very possible), and there was only one Scottish junior team in what is supposed to be a British Relays.
In spite of regular and constant protest, this situation has continued for years, with the junior competition being compromised because of it being dominated by the senior side of the event, and the problems organisers have in sorting venues and dates. My view, FWIW, is that the date is probably the most important issue for the British, and that it should take priority over all other domestic competitions, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I still don't know why.
Anyway, it was obvious that a completely independent BJOC was not viable (even though it had been done very successfully way back in the past), so I put forward the idea that it should be possible, when BOC was scheduled for a dodgy date/venue, for the BJOC to be run at another major event, to ensure that parents/drivers would still be prepared to make the trip. I suggested that this year was a good starting point, because there were serious dangers in holding a junior championship (and I was thinking primarily of 10/12s etc at this point) on an exposed high level area in March. - this was about 15 months ago BTW. As the organisers of the Forest of Dean event refused to host the event, (or so I understand) it was decided eventually to stick with the original date. That weekend is, of course, now hosting the Briitish Relays.
However, next year, the BOC is scheduled for mid-May on Penhale Sands. So, it can't be a selection race (again), and numbers will be seriously affected by exams, by the distance, and by the fact that there is no Bank Holiday for anybody that weekend. So how competitive are the junior classes going to be? The proposal was to instead run the British Juniors in conjunction with the World Cup a fortnight before, giving it high profile status, on a Bank Holiday weekend (I know English/Welsh only, but better than no BH at all), and allowing it to be the final selection race.
The idea was never to have a permanently separate BJOC, nor to have one which was junior only. Indeed, I would always prefer the seniors and juniors to run together (I'm a parent of an active junior, so have a vested interest too!), and believe that the BOC date and venue should be chosen with juniors (and elite if they are joining in again) uppermost in mind. Us vets can fit in around virtually any date or venue. But the practicality is that in spite of all junior development efforts, this isn't happening. I saw this as at least a partial solution.
One last thought. The EAOA have already stated they do not feel able to host a BOC. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the NEOA decide to go the same way now, and I for one would totally sympathise. NIOA can only do it once in a blue moon. That would deprive us of some 25% of the regions, and how many more would go that way? Hosting this event in its current form is becoming increasinbly onerous. On the other hand, hosting a BJOC would be a far easier affair, particularly if one was already putting on an event, and the work on prize giving etc was provided by BOF (which was an idea that was running alongside).
So there you have it. It might still seem like a stupid or misguided idea, but I hope that at least some of the reasoning behind the proposal makes sense. Now you can shoot it all down!
Andrew
British Junior Champs
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
I agree with your identification of the problem (BOC being held on unsuitable dates) but the "solution" of splitting it up is a fudge which detracts from its prestige and creates a new set of problems. I'm just surprised that BOF didn't see the grass-roots revolt coming on this issue.
The British Championships should be the jewel in the crown: the most important race of the season for most orienteers in this country. The relevant guideline spells it out - it's purpose is "(a) to find the British Champion in each relevant age class, and (b) to provide a high standard of domestic competition for all members of BOF through a high quality event." (my italics). It should be inclusive, and that includes the Elite classes as well - our top athletes will be more of an inspiration when they are actually there!
You're right that it needs to have a consistent date - the organising association needs to take that date and find an available venue, rather than choosing the venue and using it whenever it is available. If the regions can't manage under this constraint, perhaps it is time for BOF to take central responsibility rather than trying to rotate it round the regions; choose a quality venue and appoint the main officials themselves, and use the regions, in turn, to provide on-the-day manpower.
On your final point, the reason that we decided that we could not host another British Champs was not the size of the event, but simply that there are no areas in East Anglia that can support courses of suitable technical merit. Why should older juniors (M/W16+ are TD5) have to put up with sub-standard courses either, as you seem to be suggesting if we were to host a BJOC?
The British Championships should be the jewel in the crown: the most important race of the season for most orienteers in this country. The relevant guideline spells it out - it's purpose is "(a) to find the British Champion in each relevant age class, and (b) to provide a high standard of domestic competition for all members of BOF through a high quality event." (my italics). It should be inclusive, and that includes the Elite classes as well - our top athletes will be more of an inspiration when they are actually there!
You're right that it needs to have a consistent date - the organising association needs to take that date and find an available venue, rather than choosing the venue and using it whenever it is available. If the regions can't manage under this constraint, perhaps it is time for BOF to take central responsibility rather than trying to rotate it round the regions; choose a quality venue and appoint the main officials themselves, and use the regions, in turn, to provide on-the-day manpower.
On your final point, the reason that we decided that we could not host another British Champs was not the size of the event, but simply that there are no areas in East Anglia that can support courses of suitable technical merit. Why should older juniors (M/W16+ are TD5) have to put up with sub-standard courses either, as you seem to be suggesting if we were to host a BJOC?
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MarkC - orange
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If the British Champs is to be the the most important race of the season then we need so decide what the season is.
In central England you are within 2 hours drive of a badge event most weekends between September and May, followed by a lull in activity when the vegetation gets too unpleasant and people are off on holiday. Having a championship in May would seem a sensible climax to the season.
Up here in Scotland the 7 badge events happen from ealry March through to late October, with the gap in July/August filled by the 6 day every other year. Having a British Champs in March is plainly stupid from a Scottish viewpoint as it can be before the first badge event people have run for 6 months - hardly a recommended strategy for peak performance.
This leaves no clear season in Britain and there are many areas, like the Lake District, that aren't suitable for championships after early June due to bracken.
And then there are exams for schools and universities.
The best compromise appears to be late April / early May before exams start and vegetation starts to grow. (Remembering of course that bank holidays don't necessarily apply to Scotland.) Alternatively how about September, for areas without undergrowth problems?
In central England you are within 2 hours drive of a badge event most weekends between September and May, followed by a lull in activity when the vegetation gets too unpleasant and people are off on holiday. Having a championship in May would seem a sensible climax to the season.
Up here in Scotland the 7 badge events happen from ealry March through to late October, with the gap in July/August filled by the 6 day every other year. Having a British Champs in March is plainly stupid from a Scottish viewpoint as it can be before the first badge event people have run for 6 months - hardly a recommended strategy for peak performance.
This leaves no clear season in Britain and there are many areas, like the Lake District, that aren't suitable for championships after early June due to bracken.
And then there are exams for schools and universities.
The best compromise appears to be late April / early May before exams start and vegetation starts to grow. (Remembering of course that bank holidays don't necessarily apply to Scotland.) Alternatively how about September, for areas without undergrowth problems?
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Godders - blue
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I say make it the early May bank holiday weekend - BUT on the Saturday and Sunday - that makes it the same for our Scottish friends who do so much to give us quality events and gives the rest of us Monday to do something else - like garden visiting (rhodies will be lovely) It'll be interesting to see what the feel of the 0007 event is and the NI BOC was fantastic
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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It was stupid for BOF to put the BOC in March in the first place
However looking at the fixtures list, there isn't really anywhere else ton put it, but surely it takes priority over all other events (apart from the JK)?
However looking at the fixtures list, there isn't really anywhere else ton put it, but surely it takes priority over all other events (apart from the JK)?
- Peter B
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I agree with Mark C.'s, Godders and Mrs H.'s solution, but then have felt this all along. As for the grassroots issue, that's an interesting one The proposal was put to Council. The vast majority of Council are association reps. Those are people who are meant to represent the grassroots. If the grassroots don't like it, then something should not get through Council. But it did, by a substantial margin. So why are your reps not representing your views? Thee are also 4 councillors who try to represent member's views - is anybody interested in standing for one of the 2 vacancies currently going?
So, was the real grassroots storm not foreseen, well.......
Hopefully now the real grassroots are getting involved, a sufficiently big storm will be created that ensures that BOC is run at the right time, which is something closer to a full solution rather than what I agree was a fudge solution (but one that I still maintain is better than the status quo). If not, then we're back to square one. As long as that storm is aimed at the decision makers. If yo want BOC run at the right time, you need to be lobbying your regional reps on Fixtures and Council, finding Councillors to represent your views, maybe even standing.....
One of the things that I have long felt needs addressing is, as Mark picks up, the aims of the BOC. I believe those aims are largely mutually exclusive. I don't see how one can reasonably set about finding a true British Champion, and provide a high quality event for ALL orienteers. Occasionally, yes, and we can all remember great championships, but year in year out, one of those is going to suffer.
On the hosting of BOC in East Anglia. Well, if it's because there's no TD5 terrain, then we can kiss goodbye to BOC in most associations. Do you really think this year's BOC was at TD5, for instance? None of mine was greater than TD4. There have been plenty of really great competitions on TD4 or even 3 standard.
I agree about BOF taking a central role - indeed that has been proposed by professional staff for more than a few years. But you need to bear in mind, that unless you fina volunteers to do it, that's something that's got to be paid for. Personally, I think that would be worth it, but last time a professional paid organiser was suggested for a major event (the JK so it happens), there was a grassroots outcry....
BTW Mrs H. I'm sure the NI BOC was fantastic. But was it a national championship, particularly the relays? I know that orienteering is about finishing the course, but having an event where getting to the start line was such a difficulty was stretching things.(I know, I know, the NIOA members have to get over here every other year, and so on and so on, but that doesn't lessen the fact that the venue meant that it was one of the smallest, least representative BOCs in years).
Andrew
So, was the real grassroots storm not foreseen, well.......
Hopefully now the real grassroots are getting involved, a sufficiently big storm will be created that ensures that BOC is run at the right time, which is something closer to a full solution rather than what I agree was a fudge solution (but one that I still maintain is better than the status quo). If not, then we're back to square one. As long as that storm is aimed at the decision makers. If yo want BOC run at the right time, you need to be lobbying your regional reps on Fixtures and Council, finding Councillors to represent your views, maybe even standing.....
One of the things that I have long felt needs addressing is, as Mark picks up, the aims of the BOC. I believe those aims are largely mutually exclusive. I don't see how one can reasonably set about finding a true British Champion, and provide a high quality event for ALL orienteers. Occasionally, yes, and we can all remember great championships, but year in year out, one of those is going to suffer.
On the hosting of BOC in East Anglia. Well, if it's because there's no TD5 terrain, then we can kiss goodbye to BOC in most associations. Do you really think this year's BOC was at TD5, for instance? None of mine was greater than TD4. There have been plenty of really great competitions on TD4 or even 3 standard.
I agree about BOF taking a central role - indeed that has been proposed by professional staff for more than a few years. But you need to bear in mind, that unless you fina volunteers to do it, that's something that's got to be paid for. Personally, I think that would be worth it, but last time a professional paid organiser was suggested for a major event (the JK so it happens), there was a grassroots outcry....
BTW Mrs H. I'm sure the NI BOC was fantastic. But was it a national championship, particularly the relays? I know that orienteering is about finishing the course, but having an event where getting to the start line was such a difficulty was stretching things.(I know, I know, the NIOA members have to get over here every other year, and so on and so on, but that doesn't lessen the fact that the venue meant that it was one of the smallest, least representative BOCs in years).
Andrew
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awk - god
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Mrs H. wrote:I say make it the early May bank holiday weekend - BUT on the Saturday and Sunday - that makes it the same for our Scottish friends who do so much to give us quality events and gives the rest of us Monday to do something else - like garden visiting (rhodies will be lovely) It'll be interesting to see what the feel of the 0007 event is and the NI BOC was fantastic
Agree to all of this, but maybe the saturday to do other things - because we'll all be tired on the monday so will want to stay in bed or get home
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rob f - yellow
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Re: British Junior Champs
awk wrote:The idea was never to have a permanently separate BJOC, nor to have one which was junior only. Andrew
It would appear that this idea is still ongoing - please see attached e-mail from v. reliable source:
You may not have noticed on page 11 of FOCUS the apparently innocuous final
paragraph:
"The position regarding BJOC 2005 needs further consideration in light of the development plan associated with World Cup 2005. A final decision was delayed until the issues could be fully identified.”
Once again I think that BOF are hiding the truth from the membership. From the minutes of the BOF Fixtures Meeting on February 28th is the following:
Peter Guillaume had sought clarification from Robin Field on the final paragraph in respect of BJOC 2005. Robin has now advised KERNO organisers of BOC 2005:
“I can confirm that the 05 Junior Championship does form a pivotal part of the World Cup developmental plan and was crucial to the funding application. Accordingly I will be recommending to Council in May that we separate the Junior Championship in 2005 from the main BOC and hold it on the first weekend in May in the South East. As a matter of interest, we do have confirmation that the GCSE exams in some part of England (as well as
Scotland) do start in the second week in May.”
In other words, all through the debate this has been entirely about money, and BOF have no intention of changing the plan to have a separate Junior Championships in 2005 despite what was discussed at the AGM last year. Unless something is done this will go to Council in May and once again the membership will have had no warning of it.
Over to you ....
so you see as I have already stated money comes before members.
Could someone arrange for that to be posted on the junior forum about JBOC do you think?
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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Hi Mrs H.
I'm not totally up to date on where the 2005 proposal is now at, as things will have moved on since I left BOF in September, but the proposal then was that BJOC would be the main focus of a public race attached to World Cup, and part of a junior development project in the South East. I explained why the separation for 2005 was proposed, but it was because of the timing and venue of the proposed BOC (and the separation was only proposed in the case of the BOC going ahead on that date and venue - if it had been changed to something more sensible, it wouldn't have happened). So - in that context my statement still stands, the separation is neither permanent, nor into a junior only event.
Secondly, your correspondent is talking total and complete rubbish on a number of fronts. The issue was NOT money first, members after. The whole driving force behind this was to ensure the juniors got a championship as good as they could be, at a time and venue that they could get to reasonably. It was proposed only because the BOC was scheduled on a virtually impossible date and venue for many families, schools and individuals. Once the proposal to run the BJOC separately from BOC was accepted, then the bid went through to make certain it was financially sound, and that was part of an overall package put to the sponsors. But when you deal with sponsors, commercial or state, you can't start backing out and messing them around later on.
So Robin, as Chief Executive, is recommending to Council that the package is continued with. He would be extremely foolish to recommend anything else. But in spite of what your correspondent says, BOF (i.e. Council) has not made any decision (beyond those it made previously). BOF Council (with it's grassroots majority) can decide what it likes, but they have to accept the consequences of any last minute changes of direction (and in terms of preparing major events, we are talking last minute here).
The other conveniently forgotten snippet is about the exams. The Penhale date is in the English/Welsh and Scottish exam season, and had to be confirmed as such because some individuals at these meetings were claiming otherwise.
What I can't understand is why the grassroots aren't shouting from the rooftops about the ludicrous timing and venue for BOC. That's the real crux of the matter. There seems to be an awfully strange silence on this matter.
Andrew
I'm not totally up to date on where the 2005 proposal is now at, as things will have moved on since I left BOF in September, but the proposal then was that BJOC would be the main focus of a public race attached to World Cup, and part of a junior development project in the South East. I explained why the separation for 2005 was proposed, but it was because of the timing and venue of the proposed BOC (and the separation was only proposed in the case of the BOC going ahead on that date and venue - if it had been changed to something more sensible, it wouldn't have happened). So - in that context my statement still stands, the separation is neither permanent, nor into a junior only event.
Secondly, your correspondent is talking total and complete rubbish on a number of fronts. The issue was NOT money first, members after. The whole driving force behind this was to ensure the juniors got a championship as good as they could be, at a time and venue that they could get to reasonably. It was proposed only because the BOC was scheduled on a virtually impossible date and venue for many families, schools and individuals. Once the proposal to run the BJOC separately from BOC was accepted, then the bid went through to make certain it was financially sound, and that was part of an overall package put to the sponsors. But when you deal with sponsors, commercial or state, you can't start backing out and messing them around later on.
So Robin, as Chief Executive, is recommending to Council that the package is continued with. He would be extremely foolish to recommend anything else. But in spite of what your correspondent says, BOF (i.e. Council) has not made any decision (beyond those it made previously). BOF Council (with it's grassroots majority) can decide what it likes, but they have to accept the consequences of any last minute changes of direction (and in terms of preparing major events, we are talking last minute here).
The other conveniently forgotten snippet is about the exams. The Penhale date is in the English/Welsh and Scottish exam season, and had to be confirmed as such because some individuals at these meetings were claiming otherwise.
What I can't understand is why the grassroots aren't shouting from the rooftops about the ludicrous timing and venue for BOC. That's the real crux of the matter. There seems to be an awfully strange silence on this matter.
Andrew
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awk - god
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BOC/BRC
BOC/BRC would have been the early May Bank Holiday weekend in 2005 but was moved to accommodate the World Cup races.
In the fixture planners from 2006 to 2008 which is as far as they go at present, BOC/BRC has already been put in for the early May Bank Holiday weekend, in the hope that BOC/BJOC/BEOC Long can all be held at the same location, the Champs Saturday and the Relay Sunday. The relay cannot be a Monday as it is impractical for the Scots and is not a holiday for some Juniors. It also devalues the UK Relay League if not all clubs can enter full teams.
Peter Guillaume - Chair Fixtures Group
In the fixture planners from 2006 to 2008 which is as far as they go at present, BOC/BRC has already been put in for the early May Bank Holiday weekend, in the hope that BOC/BJOC/BEOC Long can all be held at the same location, the Champs Saturday and the Relay Sunday. The relay cannot be a Monday as it is impractical for the Scots and is not a holiday for some Juniors. It also devalues the UK Relay League if not all clubs can enter full teams.
Peter Guillaume - Chair Fixtures Group
- Peter Guillaume
British Junior Champs
Writing as (rather unexpectedly) the parent of the M10 British Champion, I have undergone a complete conversion on the timing of the Junior Champs 2005.
Of course it is infinitely to be preferred if British champs for all age classes can take place at the same event, but for this to be possible the date, rather than the area must be optimised - and many will feel this isn't ideal either. My son, overflowing with 8 year old enthusiasm, is already keen to have a go at retaining his title next year. But Cornwall is a long way from Sheffield - an especially long way for his younger sister who doesn't like long car journeys or orienteering.
Realistically it means at least Friday and Monday off school for the weekend to have any chance of being a pleasant experience rather than an ordeal. But May isn't only GCSE, A Level and University exam time, it is also SATS time, and affects younger juniors as well Our daughter will be doing Key Stage 1 SATS next May and we won't be given permission to take her out of school at all that month. Worse, for pupils in Y6, Key Stage 2 SATS are Monday 9 May to Friday 13 May 2005 - so no chance of taking the Friday off for those juniors (who will be M12s).
We may be lucky - Sheffield is supposed to be piloting a scheme to drop KS1 SATS. We may brave the long journey down to Cornwall. But if Aidan were a year older and taking KS2 SATS it would be completely out of the question.
BJOC has to take place at a time when most juniors have a reasonable chance of getting there - at least it shouldn't take place at a time when it is just impossible for many. Of course, for many of us, being tied to home bu our children's exams and assessments means that we can't attend any BOC that falls it the wrong time. Parents as well as juniors are affected.
There may not be a perfect solution, but the timing of BJOC has to keep
in touch with changing patterns of school and university assessments and exams .
Jackie
Of course it is infinitely to be preferred if British champs for all age classes can take place at the same event, but for this to be possible the date, rather than the area must be optimised - and many will feel this isn't ideal either. My son, overflowing with 8 year old enthusiasm, is already keen to have a go at retaining his title next year. But Cornwall is a long way from Sheffield - an especially long way for his younger sister who doesn't like long car journeys or orienteering.
Realistically it means at least Friday and Monday off school for the weekend to have any chance of being a pleasant experience rather than an ordeal. But May isn't only GCSE, A Level and University exam time, it is also SATS time, and affects younger juniors as well Our daughter will be doing Key Stage 1 SATS next May and we won't be given permission to take her out of school at all that month. Worse, for pupils in Y6, Key Stage 2 SATS are Monday 9 May to Friday 13 May 2005 - so no chance of taking the Friday off for those juniors (who will be M12s).
We may be lucky - Sheffield is supposed to be piloting a scheme to drop KS1 SATS. We may brave the long journey down to Cornwall. But if Aidan were a year older and taking KS2 SATS it would be completely out of the question.
BJOC has to take place at a time when most juniors have a reasonable chance of getting there - at least it shouldn't take place at a time when it is just impossible for many. Of course, for many of us, being tied to home bu our children's exams and assessments means that we can't attend any BOC that falls it the wrong time. Parents as well as juniors are affected.
There may not be a perfect solution, but the timing of BJOC has to keep
in touch with changing patterns of school and university assessments and exams .
Jackie
- jab
So, if the British Champs was held on early may bank holiday - as it should be - then we would not be in this situation - and I'm sorry Jab, the people in Cornwall probably think Northumberland is a long way away - the easy answer is to say stuff the World Cup Race - the grass roots orienteer is again the one who pays all the money and then looses out at the end of the day
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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Good news from Peter.
Well, Mrs H., we're agreed on the date thing! The issue that Jab raised, however, was not so much the distance, but the combination of distance and date. That's the killer. Penhale would be a great venue on an appropriate date (the JK there was one of the best). If the BOC has to be held at that time of year (and I don't agree it should) then it needs to be more accessible.
However, I can't agree about stuffing the World Cup. After all, BOF is under huge pressure from a significant part of its membership about raising the profile of the sport, and you don't do that by putting on an M45S race
If the grassroots orienteer pays all the money, I'd be interested to know what you think the grassroots money is being spent on that it shouldn't be spent on, and where we are losing out financially.
Andrew
Well, Mrs H., we're agreed on the date thing! The issue that Jab raised, however, was not so much the distance, but the combination of distance and date. That's the killer. Penhale would be a great venue on an appropriate date (the JK there was one of the best). If the BOC has to be held at that time of year (and I don't agree it should) then it needs to be more accessible.
However, I can't agree about stuffing the World Cup. After all, BOF is under huge pressure from a significant part of its membership about raising the profile of the sport, and you don't do that by putting on an M45S race
If the grassroots orienteer pays all the money, I'd be interested to know what you think the grassroots money is being spent on that it shouldn't be spent on, and where we are losing out financially.
Andrew
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awk - god
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The idea was never to have a permanently separate BJOC,
Now that's not what I recall you saying to me in my living room Andrew - you said then the plan was to tag the junior champs onto high profile events - it seems to me that the huge volumn of opinion on all the forums is against it - except for Jab who has yet to face the imperative of selection races etc.
well it would have been on an appropriate date if it hadn't been for the World Cup wouldn't it.Penhale would be a great venue on an appropriate date
It's quite simple - a combined British champs on a convenient date has been side lined for the sake of the World cup and the juniors have been hijacked (against their own will it seems) to make it look good and secure the funding.
well i think its up to the juniors, not an adult poll. And we;ve spoken!
Seems no one wants a seperate Junior Boc.
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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