Domestic race standards

[Kitch]

Picking up from the WOC thread.

A discussion on domestic races providing a decent grounding for international racing.

The world has changed alot "since I was a lad". Then it was only long races. As a junior I prepared to be competitive in M21 and M21 meant long races. When I got into M21 I, and other GB team members, wanted to prepare for international races and that meant pressuring for longer courses. At BOC and JK we got them. At the time the main body of the team was based in Scotland (Stan, Dickie Jones, Dave Peel, Jon Musgrave, Steve Nicolson, myself) and we managed to get an M21E class at SOL races to provide what we needed. When Middle racing came along a Middle race was staged on the Saturday before every SOL (making a fantastic weekend of competition).
These days that has gone and old men like Musgrave can win a SOL M21 race in under an hour.

Since the advent of middle and now sprint there are other options available to juniors moving into 21 and many take them. They focus on sprint and on middle.

And therin lies a concern: people are focussed on different things.

What this means is that an already small pool of competition in Britain is made even smaller because it is split into 3; long, middle, sprint. Or more accurately these days; sprint, middle, long.

It also means that the body of pressure to have races of certain standard / length is diluted.
Why is there no pressure for classic races to be minimum 90 minutes winning time ? Is it because many top runners are more concerned about the middle or sprint races?

All this is about creating competition and the system that was created to do that is now failing to do so, namely the UK Cup.
This is because the athletes are all persuing individual agendas and UK-Cup doesn't always fit in.
Again copetition gets diluted as everyone goes their own way. I blame cheap air fares.

One thing that came out of Scotland in the early 90s was a set of 4 World Championships Silver Medals, won by 4 of our men but earned by about 8, all of whom worked together and pushed domestic standards to a level where it was possible.

[graeme]

The M21E at SOL was dropped because the elites didn't support it. If you look back through the comments about SOLs posted here, you'll see they still don't.

Partly, this is because with cheap travel elites have other races to focus on. But if you run a 100min classic hard, you're compromising your training for a week. 7 SOLs, plus JK, BOC, SOC before you start on international races is simply too many, especially wehn they're all condensed into the "racing season". True, M40s can win SOLs (and SHIs), and these are high quality races on good terrain. Until the elites show a bit of commitment to show up to quality domestic races (as you did in the early 90s), you can't expect those races to change to meet their needs. And it is *not* chicken-and-egg : the races were there, they weren't supported, and so they were lost.

A suggestion: pick a SOL (before they print the publicity, so people know what's happening!), guarantee to bring the SEDs, ask the planner and competitions convenor to extend the "long" course. Find an elite to test run the course (all our controllers are too old...), and if it works out well, you'll have some leverage.

[Kitch]

Totally accept your points on attendance etc. Graeme.
Not complaining just putting up an example of what can be done if people get organised.

I'll be encouraging SEDS to attend SOLs from now on.

Disagree that racing a SOL compromises training. It should be part of training and you plan around it, worked for me. There are only 3 or 4 SOL 'in the season'

When can the competitions convenor give me the dates for SOLs next year ?

[brooner]

Also get yourself up to the PT in a few weeks time if you want some classic races in tough & technical terrain

day 1 - mighty thistle -~13km
day 2 - mighty thistle ~9.5km

and if you've got a bit of energy left you can always go and do the WOC classic races afterwards too, thats only 15+km for the guys!

Nice relaxing weekend in the north that is, entries close next monday (14th).

But is it isn't really any wonder that we do struggle to compete in the classics, the longest UK cup courses this year were 3km & 2km shorter than the WOC classic mens and womens courses, and that was on 2 occasions JK & BEOC Long, both won in about 85 minutes. Women's courses going over 10km is something I've never come across in this country and the guys who were running in the classic have never run longer than 90 minutes in a uk cup race in the past few years.

I guess it depends on what the focus of the UK's elite competitions are, are they to prepare athletes to compete on the world level, ie provides a number of proper classic distance races of 90-100 minutes, or are they to develop an elite level of domestic competition providing something that is more attainable perhaps (generally shorter distances).

[bendover]

in a way, there is no reason that a long (100+ min) SOL race couldn't be integrated into training. just because it is a SOL race, it doesn't mean that it has to be run at 100%. an elite athlete may treat it as an opportunity simply to run a long orienteering race at say 80-85%, hence getting valuable terrain/orienteering time through nov-march that from which the rewards can be reaped in the summer. plenty of orienteers do long runs of 2+ hrs in the winter, why not run slightly shorter than that, slightly faster, in terrain, with a map? it's got to be relevant and quality training.

[Gross]

Speed is going to be important next year in WOC with the middle & relay going to be way under 5 mins/km and the long not much slower.

Andy's right about the mid 90's up in Scotland... we had the Scottish Short series followed by elite at the Scotland Gallopens with winning times way longer than today....

I don't think you can say that our long athletes suffer from not running long enough races... there are plenty in Scandinavia etc to choose from. I think it's the level below that suffers from shorter courses and these are the fringe runners that don't get into teams and tours so don't get the same opportunity as the rest..... but then there are cheap airfares

[Kitch]

I guess it depends on what the focus of the UK's elite competitions are

My main point is not necessarily about full distance long courses (though I think we need some). It is about everyone in Britain who wants to be the best focussing on the same domestic races in order to push the standard.

In the last couple of years that simply has not happened.

I think this is for a couple of reasons
- its too easy to play jet set and skip off abroad.
- different people are focussed on different disciplines.

As Graeme says if people do not show commitment to races, races are not going to change to suit those people.

Races will only change if everyone attends and everyone then lobbies for appropriate change.

in respect of Brooner's quote
- Britain's elite competitions will not achieve a focus until the elite competitors start to focus on on British races.

[bendover]

so... straight either/or question:

do you think that britains elite athletes will get better WOC results by racing regularly against each other in the UK, or by racing regularly abroad against international competitors?

[Kitch]

Make the most of the British season
Until the end of May race at home, push each other.
after that go abroad
Our season is perfectly timed

At home you know your competiotors, you know your environment there are no excuses, nowhere to hide, you should expect to be the best. If you are not then what is your business abroad ?

go abroad and its more about experience, there are lots of subconscious get out clauses;
you are not on home ground, 'they' are used to the terrain, 'they' didn't have to travel 12 hours to get here, 'they' slept in their own bed.

[graeme]

When can the competitions convenor give me the dates for SOLs next year ?

That would be the Fixtures Secretary's job

For planning most of what's known is on the website:

Badge dates with BOF at
http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/f ... xmajor.htm

Unofficial forward planning for SOA at SOA site "competitions"; "rules and guidelines"; "current allocations"; Until a club actually registers its event, I can't promise it will happen, but that should give you some idea about who to talk to about events.

[fish]

At home you know your competiotors, you know your environment there are no excuses, nowhere to hide, you should expect to be the best. If you are not then what is your business abroad ?

Think this is very true. There is nothing wrong with going abroad for experience - but it is definitely a different thing to racing where you absolutely have to be at the front end of the field.

[bendover]

great answer kitch and i agree with it. the 'no get out clause' is very true. apart from spring cup (when lots of brits are there anyway) and international races when I was actually selected to be there, I have never felt the same pressure racing abroad as I have at home.

Of course I figure it's completely different if you are actually living abroad.

[EddieH]

Intresting discussion. It all I fear points to the dumming down of classic orienteering. My personal concern is the ridiculously short winning times for veteran classes - we get slower but our stamina is not diminished.

Sprint racing is brilliant, but it is also different, and for me nothing beats the classic. Why can't veteran winning times in Championships be 75 minutes (or more)? People can always opt for the short courses.

[DIDSCO]

Makes you wonder if the 'classic race' is on the way out doesn't it. Its so much easier to put on and find areas for a top quality middle or sprint races, that the seems at the moment to be an almost natural movement away from the classic.

A few years ago I think most of us still classed the long-distance World Champ as the 'real' World Champ. But recently I feel a shift in opinion. Winning the middle or sprint seems to be just as popular, it could be argued its even 'cooler' to be sprint World Champ because its so public friendly and intense.

Is this the beginning of the end for the classic?

[Gross]

Begining of the end was when the IOF renamed the 'classic' to 'long'. The name classic has some meaning & emotion behind it.... long is a nothing word. Would the marathon have the same appeal if it was know as the 'long' race???? Or Mountain Marathon's as Long Mountain race???