Fast punching at WOC

[SYO Member]

I thought this issue merited its own thread so here goes.

In spite of what the SI people at WOC told EriOL, to me it revolves around whether the beep was heard or not. We have been told that the punching process is a 2-stage affair. Firstly, the SI number is written to the unit and secondly, the control-code and time are written to the SI card a millisecond or 2 later. Could it be that the beep occurs after Stage 1 and the unit flashes after Stage 2? Can SI confirm this?

If so, it means it is possible to put your card in the unit and hear a beep but still have no time recorded on the card if you are fast enough. So the simple solution is to always check for the flash instead of only listening for the beep.

I must admit I have always been surprised at any event how many people have 'mp' in the results and had always assumed this was the output from SI software for what would otherwise be called 'Retired' or for one or more controls not being punched, although the 3rd party Mercs sotware does distinguish between 'rtd', 'dnf' and 'Missing no 13' (for example) in its classified results.

I have selected 3 events at random this year that I haven't been to, and have checked results (splits or classified) to find out how many single controls were missed by 'mp' finishers.

At the DEVON event at Woodbury Common on January 22nd, there were 9 out of 25 'mp' finishers from a total of 282 missing a single control. At the ESOC event at Dalmeny on April 30th, it was 8 out of 11 from a total of 148 and at the DVO event at Crich on May 21st it was 6 out of 26 from a total of 205.

A straw poll perhaps, but did these 23 orienteers all punch too fast at a single control or just didn't go to it? We don't know, because there hasn't been anybody complaining on Nopesport or anywhere else about perceived unfair disqualification. However, in future I will just make sure I see the flash rather than hear the beep.

[SYO Member]

Well I tried my new plan out at White Rose Day 2......and failed miserably! The problem is that after 9 years of using SI, you have your own technique relating to the approach to the control once you've spotted it, checking the code, sticking your card in, deciding your egress from it etc, and it's quite difficult initially to include an extra task of watching for the flash. Because your mind is concentrating on what you've done hundreds of times before, you just forget to do it. What I was able to do however, was deliberately keep my card in the hole for a fraction of a second longer.

Incidentally, does anyone know why any of those 23 people mentioned in my first posting here did 'mispunch' at those events?

[mharky]

Have you actually asked someone from Sport Ident whether the beep comes before or after the info is written back to the SI card. I have always been under the impression that the beep and flash occur at the same time, and are the last things to happen. On several occasions I have punched and been away an heard the beep after my card was clearly out of the hall, and never been DSQ for missing a punch that I know I have been too.

[Neil M35]

It only makes sense to have any feedback (beep or flash) after all the SI card and control unit processing is complete. I am sure this is how Sport Ident will have designed it.

The issue is whether or not the process always works as designed. When every box has it's own copy of the software and there are multiple versions out there working with multiple versions of cards it is not inconveivable that some boxes do not work as they are supposed to some of the time.

[swat]

Shouldn't it be a three step process:

1. Block reads card
2. Block writes to card
3. Block reads card again to confirm the write

then the block bleeps and flashes?

Maybe the third (validation) step is already incorporated into the 'write to card' process?

[Kitch]

Rather than obsessing over the intricacies of the software and the process it supports here is a thought.

E-punching is not instantaneous, nobody said it was but some people punch as if it is/should be.

There is much anecdotal evidence that it is possible to punch a control too quickly,

Simple solution - don't rush.
Its a philosophy that will serve you well in all aspects of orienteering.

[SYO Member]

No I didn't contact SI directly when this issue arose during WOC, firstly because I don't have any personal axe to grind and secondly because EriOL, who is a Nopesport poster, had already been in contact there with SI who surely were following what was being said here.

My interpretation of Stage 1/Stage 2 etc was just a possible conclusion to how the punching process had been described and I was puzzled why nobody in the know responded.

Like Mharky, I have never had a phantom mispunch but from now on, after my White Rose test, I will just make sure I don't punch too quickly.

[johnloguk]

I might be kidding myself here, not for the first time maybe , but I have had 1 DQ for mispunching and everyone told me at the time that I must have punched too quickly. I have always thought that was odd because I usually follow Kitch's mantra of not rushing on an orienteering course, it will only end in tears somewhere, either a mistake or a mispunch.

So I've always had a sneaking suspicion that there was another fault there (equipment failure maybe in either the card or the box?), is this possible? I know that if a box "goes down" then loads of people will be DQed and it is obvious. When I was Dqed I was the only person to get mp at that control, and I know I saw the flash and heard the bleep, and I am highly unlikely to have punched too fast.

Elite orienteers do punch fast, when 10 seconds separates you from gold on a middle distance race you are going to shave as many nano-seconds as you can from wherever, but do the rest of us really make the same error? Is there any evidence of intermittent faults with boxes and dibbers, similar to "its electrical mate" with your car?

Maybe I did punch too fast when I got DQed, but I won't be surprised if someone eventually comes up with another explanation at some point.

[FatBoy]

Finally did some digging on this (been busy...). Found the bit in the SI programmer's manual that I couldn't find before (RTFM):

There are different error codes describing the completion rate of the punching progress. In case of an uncompleted punch this error code is stored instead of the higher time byte in the non-volatile memory. It is also sent out over the serial output lines if auto send-mode is active. Please note that uncompleted punches are not stored in the control card. In the backup memory an error code is overwritten by the same card. The error codes are not unique in the different working modes.

Now this is for the old stations, although there is nothing in the later station programming guides to state this has changed. So the interesting bit is "Please note that uncompleted punches are not stored in the control card". Hmm. Maybe different for Card 6, although again nothing to say this.

Also found the error codes:

Code: Select all

0FAh (ErrA)  10%
0FBh (ErrB)  20%   
0FCh (ErrC)  40%   
0FDh (ErrD)  70%
0FEh (ErrE?) 70%
0F9h         15%    (control card memory full)


It doesn't say what the %age complete actually refers to, but then again if the station reports the error and the card doesn't contain any data then it doesn't matter. The %ages only refer to control stations - other %ages for start/finish/clear/check etc.

[Red Adder]

I don't know if it cause by speped but I have found that if you are a bit sloppy with your punching you can angle the SI Card and do a partial, slanyed, insertion which probably not register but can feel you have inserted so if you don't register the lack of blink or leep it could be a DQ.

[graeme]

Is there any evidence of intermittent faults with boxes and dibbers, similar to "its electrical mate" with your car?

Yes, quite a lot. I looked into this when we had a protest at the JOK Chasing Sprint in 2004 (?), I thought there was a nopesport thread then, but I
can't find it. Most common "intermittent" is that the unit fails for someone's card, I found maybe a dozen examples of people finding themselves the only ones using the back-up punch. Unfortunately nothing further happens after the person is reinstated.

I messed around with the system when it came out: it is very hard to punch so fast that there's no error record in the box, and I was unable to get the card out post-flash beep without registering a punch.

[johnloguk]

Thanks for that Graeme. I thought someone out there must have done some "research", technology eh!

[johnloguk]

Thanks for that Graeme. I thought someone out there must have done some "research", technology eh!

[HOCOLITE]

Yesterday at NGOC event the brand new Download Station failed to read V 6 SI cards with a lot of wiggling and many attempts I think they got most of them done. Physical problem I think not electronic. Not happened with our older download stns

[Adventure Racer]

Indeed, having just upgraded to a V6 I had that experience and it was very strange, though the chap on d/l seemed to have sussed it by the time I got there and got it to work with a few wiggles.

On the subject of the thread, I'm still getting used to a V6, and I was sure at one control I had punched too fast, but noting I did get a flash and beep I made a specific note of the control with this thread in mind. Was almost disappointed not to mp, but bearing in mind how fast the punch did seem, it strikes me that if this is the normal case with a V6 then you really would have to try hard to mp with one of these (which is the main reason for upgrading, given I did twice mp this year with a V5).