Co-ordination?

[awk]

An interesting (if trivial for those not involved) anomaly in the Lakes 5-day details.

Day 2: "The terrain is physically and technically challenging": M45S = 5.1k and 280m of climb (cf M21L 9.2k/460m), longest M45S course of the week.

Day 3: "The area is highly runnable being almost exclusively rough grass": M45S = 4.4k/220m (M21L 9.1k/535m).

Eh?

Looks to me as if the Day 2 planner has got the M45S/M21V at least 1km (over 20%) too long. (Maybe because they've been combined with M40S, not one of BOF recommended, whilst all the other classes that they should be combined with are almost 1km short.)

Out of interest, from those who've done this sort of thing, do planners/controllers of multidays speak to each other? Are their efforts co-ordinated?

[graeme]

At the 6-day, there's an overall technical coordinator who (in principle) checks all the planning for consistency. When I've been involved the separate day teams haven't spoken directly, except where an area is reused.

We decided not to go to Day 2. I try to avoid areas that have been renamed more than once (Breasty Haw/Grizedale/Greythwaite North), a policy which has served me well previously

Graeme

[Bill]

As Graeme says, the 6 Days technical coordinator governs the planning standards. Course length ratios are specified for the week and the planners/controllers for each day are advised of an estimated running speed for M21 on their area. Around 4 benchmark courses need to be submitted by each day for early review by the technical coordinator who will check quality, lengths, start locations and so on.

In the end, though, it is still the planners and controllers who are responsible for planning courses to deliver the recommended winning times. No area will allow the same running speed over all parts of the map so each course may need some adjustment of the guidelines.

[Freefall]

I am the Controller for Day 1 of the Lakes 5 Day (course 10 on Day 1 is 5.1 km and 110 m on an area of fairly fast running but with marshes that are heavier going).

Early on in proceedings the course combinations and ratios were circulated to all planners, organisers and controllers for comment by the overall controller coordinator. They were based on BOF but with some departures because of numbers. A few other changes were suggested and there was a little tinkering around (including M50L ratio). I personally was up for making things longer in some cases as I think the current ratios no longer reflect the profile of orienteers established some time ago (but that's a different topic to discuss).

Planners were pretty much left to get on with things and I doubt if there was any liaison - each area differs and it is the planner's resaponsibility to plan courses that met the guidelines agreed by all.

As Controller I didn't speak to any other Controller. I commented on course lengths to the planner and after visiting the area came up with pretty much the same figures per km. Some changes were made to the shape of the courses (especially M45L and M50L) as I thought there was insufficient change in direction, leg lengths. The planner had a rethink and I was much happier.

Final course lengths were compiled and circulated and I am sure the controller coordinator looked at them. He left responsibility to individual planning and controlling teams to the best of my knowledge and certainly has not asked to see individual maps/courses etc.

Planners were asked to write a description about the terrain for inclusion in the final details. As Controller for Swindale I was happy with how the area had been described.

Obviously in Black and White it looks like an anomaly (I haven't looked at any other examples apart from the one you mentioned) but the proof is in the running. Don't get too hung up about things - it's only fun after all.

[johnloguk]

This is an interesting and worthwhile thread, but like many others it might be best to see how things actually turn out. We've had similar discussions before about course lengths, winning times etc and there does seems to be a consensus that adhering strictly to rules/guidelines isn't as important as a good course for the punters. This may be a case in point, and there might be something about the area that makes courses a bit longer, maybe to avoid some grot, who knows. It's all speculation at this point, but for me if the course is enjoyable I don't usually worry about running a km longer than expected. I might moan if it was all grot though, but then that's an orienteer's perogative (or maybe bad route choice )

The 6-Days system of co-ordinating/checking courses over different days does seem a good idea though, if I've read it right.

[Freefall]

If the mist comes down on Swindale any theoretical times will proabably go out the window as competitors struggle to relocate when everything looks the same! There's one track in the area and no walls or fences.

[johnloguk]

Oh no the last post from Freefall just reminded me of an epic in South Wales, on a map where pits were only shown if they were bigger than 5m across (I'm sure someone will know where it is). The mist was right down and everyone was taking ages, I think it was a C2, and there were mutterings in assembly about slow winning times, then the mist lifted and the later runners romped round easily. Definitely a game of two halves, but nothing anyone could have done about it.

[IanW]

Andy,

As co-planner of day 3, I confess that we didn't talk to any of the other planners. As already said, we were given a set of courses & course ratios by the overall coordinator and worked to those. I certainly assumed that the planners & controllers for the individual days were best placed to judge the absolute lengths.

For Angle Tarn, we had results for the last two events (2 and 4 years ago?) and the conditions haven't changed, so we felt we had good data to work to. Angle Tarn is pretty hilly and fairly complex, hence lengths that might look a little short.

Having run at Graythwaite at the recent regional event, I recall that the northern area was pretty tough. I don't know if the day 2 area overlaps with that terrain, but if it does I think you might be right about the ratios of days 2 & 3. We'll have to wait and see if either or both of us have got it wrong!

Ian

[awk]

Some interesting responses - thank you all.

As several say, the proof will be in the eating - but knowing the areas (I've run on all bar the new one), Day 2 jumped out as being somewhat out of synch.

I personally was up for making things longer in some cases as I think the current ratios no longer reflect the profile of orienteers established some time ago (but that's a different topic to discuss).

The general feedback I get from Short class runners is that shorter courses are preferred - this might be different to Long class opinion. As to speed ratios - they have regularly held up when retested, even quite recently (I did some work on this about 4 years ago for instance).

Don't get too hung up about things - it's only fun after all.

No I won't, promise, but I raised the point because I want my orienteering (and this holiday) to be fun!

[Freefall]

Awk

I wasn't really thinking about Short Courses - more the long. Even a pretty average M50 like myself is sometimes finding the time out in the forest a bit short. I am sure when I was a bit younger I had a lot more memorable epic battles out in forest wondering if I would ever get home. It could be my orienteering has improved but I have heard similar comment from others.

I'm sure you will enjoy the week. I am so disappointed that I will be in plaster on crutches so was unable to enter to run the other days
Colin Matheson

[roadrunner]

Awk

I wasn't really thinking about Short Courses - more the long. Even a pretty average M50 like myself is sometimes finding the time out in the forest a bit short.

As another pretty average M50, I tend to find the reverse! It also seems that our length ratios make the older age class courses relatively longer than those you get abroad. As an example, take this year's O-Ringen. Ignoring the day with a short course (where the spread of distances was much narrower than normal), H21E ran 12.56k, 12.57k, 12.14k and 13.88k, while H50 ran 5.5k, 5.83k, 6.02k and 5.56k. That's less than 50%, compared with the BOF guideline of 79%. H21E winning time was around 80 minutes, H50 around 40. Even so, I noticed that the short classes were popular. Is it that British orienteers want much longer in the forest than their counterparts abroad?

[awk]

I have long found that British courses tend to be longer than elsewhere. I think you're partly right, in that there's an element of wanting value for money. I also think there's (what I find to be) a very odd attitude in Britain that so often seems to equate quantity with quality: that courses have got to be long and 'ard to be worthwhile (it might even be a national trait, as measurement by quantity seems to appear elsewhere in British life too), almost as if it's an affront to one's masculinity to be asked to do anything less (we don't hear half as much about course lengths being too short from women, who when they don't like shorter courses seem to simply run up a distance without comment).

Personally, almost all my most enjoyable orienteering experiences have been when the focus has been on quality - which doesn't preclude quantity, but only when that's an integral part of the event (e.g. a long-O). (To that extent the best events are usually those with limited numbers of courses, planned to a standard rather than for an age group). That might seem all too obvious, but it seems to me that too often the focus is on quantity (a mistake that I might also have made when starting this thread - forming an opinion about a course based purely on distance/climb/ratio).

I could, of course, simply be generalising massively

[graeme]

[H21E ran 12.56k, 12.57k, 12.14k and 13.88k, while H50 ran 5.5k, 5.83k, 6.02k and 5.56k. That's less than 50%, compared with the BOF guideline of 79%. ...
Is it that British orienteers want much longer in the forest than their counterparts abroad?

Maybe our e-lite courses are just short?

Not relevant to ratios, but multidays tend to be shorter than one-offs (even if not specified by the rules, I'd always err on the short side for planning a multiday). So if your experience abroad is mainly at multidays, you'll form the opinion that foreign courses are shorter.

[awk]

Looks to me as if the Day 2 planner has got the M45S/M21V at least 1km (over 20%) too long.

To follow up this thread post event - it looks as if Day 2 was about 40-50% longer than other days, which themselves seemed about right.

[Tatty]

My husband felt the same about the M60L - about 20% too long. My senior punters course times were similarly long although I had my best result of the week!!