Elite Class Sizes

[tendon]

Didsco, elsewhere, differentiates between Elite and Recreational runners.

The JK M21 Elite class was a bit larger than M21A, with many competitors some way behind the leaders. At BOC, just under 50% of the M21 age group entry was running elite.

So, how big should the class be? Is it right that 60 people should be able to enter before seeding kicks in or should it be seeded down to those individuals with a genuine chance to come in the top 3 (or 10)?

Is the Elite class too broad and recreational? Is it the new long - the Value for money course? Would there be a better opportunity for publicity if the size of the class were reduced by half with correspondingly closer results.

The original 60 limit was, I suspect, derived when the M21 population was considerably greater than at present. Should it still apply?

[gg]

Maybe only the top 100 ranked in M21 (plus wildcards?) should be allowed to enter elite. Then you have to earn the right, even if that isn't really too difficult

[Tatty]

At the JK some entered the Elite as the distance in total over the two days was shorter than M21L!! They did not run the Elite at BOC

[graeme]

For BEOC you do have to qualify through the UK cup. Only 60 can run, a limit which has been imposed in the past.

A good reason to have 60 is that it makes the sport look healthy. Also, it makes it fairer for the "real" elite if the course has already been pre-run by 40 "recreational eliite", both in tems of making tracks and ensuring controls are correctly place/not vandalised. And of course letting people do what they want.

The only downside is if the start interval gets small enough that there's lots of real elite following. I have previously been (ignored in) suggesting a 2-minute start interval for the first 40 and a 5-minute start interval for the top-20.

Graeme (M44: 3rd last seeded starter @ BEOC 2005 )

[Ravinous]

If we have the British Long Championships, there should be no short classes. This just simply does not make sense to me. How you can be British Long Distance Champion in your age class on a short course is beyond me - and it undervalues the true champions to my mind. This problem is probably brought about as there is no "Middle" Distance Champs for everybody. (Are we a sport for all??)
I suggest we take a leaf out of other nations books. BOC Championships for all classes should, in my opinion be a Saturday of qualifications - one age class category (ie M/W21, 35, 40 etc.) The number of heats is determined by the number of entrants in each class. Small classes would have one heat, the results from which would decide starting order on the Sunday. Bigger classes would have several heats. Heats would be 66% of the A-Final Sunday Championship Course. B-Final, C-Final etc courses get progressively a little shorter.
EG In Czech, 160 run in H21 over 4 heats. The top 8 make the A-Final, next 8, the B-Final, 8-C Final, rest in the D.
This sounds a lot of courses and work, but I have experienced this and it seems a good format.
We all know that the rankings can be a bit random and having open qualification races, people who have peaked for a BOC and do little else the rest of the year would not be forced out of a straight final.
So, one weekend would be BOC Long, another with a Bank Holiday could be the Middle with Relay on the Monday.

[Homer]

I think Ravinous's proposal sounds fantastic.
Bring it on!

[Meat Market]

As someone who has entered elite every time until recently but not ran to elite standard, i think it would be better if there was some sort of performance measure you had to attain to qualify to get into beoc and the jk. It shouldn't be hard enough to reduce the field by more than 10 runners but it should be there for the worse runners to feel that they have earned the right to compete at the level. I think if i knew i had to qualify to run elite i would work a lot harder at my orienteering!

[bendover]

i like nicks idea too.

for the record, it could be argued that as a recreational orienteer, i for one shouldn't have run elite at the JK because time wise i was miles behind.

however, i think there are several people like me who run elite at the JK because its great to have the opportunity to test myself over the longer distance against the best the UK has to offer. i'd be dissappointed to have this opportunity taken away from me.

[FatBoy]

Maybe only the top 100 ranked in M21 (plus wildcards?) should be allowed to enter elite.

You don't have to be that good to get in the top 100. I'm ranked 74 and I was 20 mins down on 21L at BOC (and that run was about my average ranking score).

I agree with Nick that it makes no sense to have a short champion on a BOC long, but is that more to do with the fact that really the courses are A and B? What sense a "B" British Champion is perhaps another question.

Nick's suggestion sounds a lot of fun. My personal target for instance could be to make the B final - gives some motivation other than not disgracing myself. The immediate problem however is BOC relays. Yes you could have it on a bank holiday monday but there's always the Scottish problem with some of those. I'm not putting the idea down though.

When I first ran M21 I was actually fit enough to run Elite but they had a selection criteria in place that prevented anybody without Championship standard from the previous year entering. Because of attending only British and JK and no nationals the year before and blowing up big style JK day 2 I didn't meet the criteria - I suspect the same for many others. I don't remember JK but British that year at Newborough had only about 20 competitors. Not sure this few is what we want?

[mharky]

I think the idea of having Middle and Sprint championships for everyone is also a very good idea.

Although I have often heard older people say "Sprint, I can't sprint" and other such stuff. But then it's all relative, they can't run long races either. So their sprint would be shorted than the 21, in the same way they didn't have 14km at the JK.

[gg]

i did a sprint race in oslo on tuesday, and there was only 1 course (plus novice), and there were close to 300 people of all ages running that course. There were loads of different categories and everybody was loving it.

I even met this M40 something on the train home who said he had travelled 120km by train to get there...

[rocky]

ah, the oslo city cup... great fun, 2 people starting every 15 seconds. choo choo!

[gg]

makes it more difficult to get past people than to find the controls....

[Supersaint]

[quote="FatBoy]When I first ran M21 I was actually fit enough to run Elite but they had a selection criteria in place that prevented anybody without Championship standard from the previous year entering.[/quote]

I like the idea of having to get a certain standard to get a place on elite, perhaps not championships badge, but just one championship standard in the year before. This should at least make the national events at the end of the year slightly better attended (last year's event at Kyloe had about 11 on M21E, with the women having less than 10, whilst at Kilnsey there were 11 men and 3 women!) with people chasing those final championship standards.

[FatBoy]

My point was it ended up with only 20 odd on the Elite, wheras in previous years they'd had to select down to the best 80. 20 doesn't make much of a race, even if they're the only 20 who are in with shout. The drop in numbers in M21 since then (95) is well publicised so maybe 20 is now 10? Anybody know how many M21's have achieve champ badge/standard at any race in a year these days?

I'm not opposed to standards being restricted at all though - I think far too many run Elite who clearly aren't. You listening John?

Maybe use the rankings as they're the best thing we've got and say you need to be within 15% of the top, rather than a number of places. You can pro-rata those people who don't have 6 scores. You'll always need wild-card and foreign (JK) entries on top.