Thurdays PWT is on a 1:3000, why? Because the technical terrain demands it. It's better the make the map fit for the terrain than to try and fit the terrain into a map just because guidelines say so.
School maps should be at very large scales, I agree. Schools are generall not that big. In general schools orienteering is the first place learners experience it. Having a nice big, clear map of their school is far more important than having a guideling following 1:10000, many schools maps use non-standard symbols. These maps and areas are where the kids just get a feel for what orienteering is like, i doubt having schools maps at 1:2450 will affect out JWOC team. However it will look good, and be easy to use. If the map is small and cluttered because the mapper has chosed an inappropriate scale then the kids will have a bad experience and are more likely never to go o'ing again.
You have to run on a 1:15000 for the first time at one point? Or should junior courses by on that scale?
Orienteering is about using a map to navigate round a course. That is it. Our NGB's and IGB's have defined that we have standard scales of 1:10,15 and nor 1:4/5, because as you say, consitency is important. and in gerenal most maps are at these scales. But i really think school maps can be an exception.
Scales for White and Yellow
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I am a junior coach, I specialise in beginners, I only coach upto orange (by choice). I have coached in primary schools for a number of years and at junior club level. I have recently coached some groups of guides. I have never felt there was a problem with 1:10000 as children easily relate to 1cm and 100metres they are familiar distances. But 50 metres is not so easy.
Within school grounds and outdoor centres I coach on the map available but I always prepare the children for 1:10000. I also have in the past done a large amount of classroom/in school work including symbols compass and pacing. In fact I found the pacing sheets from the school team which won year 6 boys at the British Schools at Watford. These boys actually enjoyed pacing comparing their paces to each other and recording them. This group also enjoyed compass cones in fact they invented their own words and 'sums' layouts to challenge the rest.
I have never felt their was a problem from the childs point of view with 1:10000. There maybe from a planning point of view where there are close junctions and thus the circles are too close or overlap.
Within school grounds and outdoor centres I coach on the map available but I always prepare the children for 1:10000. I also have in the past done a large amount of classroom/in school work including symbols compass and pacing. In fact I found the pacing sheets from the school team which won year 6 boys at the British Schools at Watford. These boys actually enjoyed pacing comparing their paces to each other and recording them. This group also enjoyed compass cones in fact they invented their own words and 'sums' layouts to challenge the rest.
I have never felt their was a problem from the childs point of view with 1:10000. There maybe from a planning point of view where there are close junctions and thus the circles are too close or overlap.
Diets and fitness are no good if you can't read the map.
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HOCOLITE - addict
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Like I said mapping is about putting enough detail on to be able to navigate. If you're in an urban area this undoubtably means you cannot be at 1:15,000 for example. If a specific area requires 1:3,000 to physically get everything in that has to be that way. You can leave things off a map in open forest but you can't really leave off important alley ways and staircases in an urban area. Fair enough. Same for exceptionally technical forests. I don't condone using larger scales simply because there's so many features - mapping is the art of conveying enough information to be able to navigate. You should only elect to use a larger scale when leaving it at the standard scale would make navigation confusing.
It's about trying to stick to the standards we collectively have for the maps (which actually include clauses for especially technical areas). What I don't want is people abritrarily picking a scale to map at.
Schools maps may be slightly different to white/yellow/MW10 as they're effectively sprint maps. A standard scale would be good though so children can go from school to school and have a feel for it.
As for when juniors should move up to 1:15,000. Good question, but I do find it amazing that a top W16 had never run on 1:15,000 until 15 years old. I could probably go in my parents attic and find 1:15,000 maps I ran on aged under 10. No they aren't black and white. Well maybe some are
It's about trying to stick to the standards we collectively have for the maps (which actually include clauses for especially technical areas). What I don't want is people abritrarily picking a scale to map at.
Schools maps may be slightly different to white/yellow/MW10 as they're effectively sprint maps. A standard scale would be good though so children can go from school to school and have a feel for it.
As for when juniors should move up to 1:15,000. Good question, but I do find it amazing that a top W16 had never run on 1:15,000 until 15 years old. I could probably go in my parents attic and find 1:15,000 maps I ran on aged under 10. No they aren't black and white. Well maybe some are
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FatBoy - addict
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Go back about 10 years and the elites were adamant they preferred not to run on anything but 1:15000. The middle races arrived, then sprint races arrived and with it loads of differnt scales. I haven't heard any elite moan about the scale for at least 5 years. Adjusting to different scales is part of the game. WC Sprint in Italy was at 1:4000 - I am told HW had to adjust to the scale pretty quickly as she almost overran the first control. Probably made her race.
For youngsters the scale in school grounds is pretty unimportant. The clarity certainly is vital. Once the map skills are mastered at whatever scale they soon adjust.
For youngsters the scale in school grounds is pretty unimportant. The clarity certainly is vital. Once the map skills are mastered at whatever scale they soon adjust.
- Guest
In the end the scales not important, its all about the map. If you are reading the map and checking off features as you go you will get the 'feel' for the scale very quickly. If you are not then you deserve to make a mistake
So teach the kids to read the map and they will be fine no matter what the scale.
So teach the kids to read the map and they will be fine no matter what the scale.
- candyman
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looking at my old map folders from early 1970s, colour O maps with scales from 1:7500 up to (commonly) 1:20,000, with lots of the detailed Swedish ones at 1:20,000. Suspect much of demand for 1:15,000 came from people not wanting great big floppy map, as many of my maps from then have clearly been trimmed right down by me to cut off all xs before the race (usually master maps then) so some of them are very odd shapes!
I have a 1:10,560 of Brindley from 1971....
At regional/national level I think 12 year olds are well able to understand and run on 1;15,000, if it's explained to them. After all, O maps are not the only ones they come across in day to day life, most street maps and road maps have far worse scales!. At other levels and specialist events they should be able to cope with 1:4000 or 1;5000, and be trained to do so. Areas mapped at those scales are now so common that most club coaches should be able to get their juniors some practice on them. Actually, it's more difficult for me to find club coaching areas with 1:15,000 maps locally, as the 1:15,000 tend to be the more "important" and distant O areas.(note to self to try and find some 1:15,000 for 2006 training perhaps)
One of the best changes in orienteering over last 30 years is the huge variety of places that have been mapped. Be interesting to see what place in the UK is the furthest away from an O map: I have 2 folders labelled "local O maps" (usually within ~45km radius) and they're bursting at the seams!
Our juniors rate distance judgment generally as being something they need to practice, so we do. It's one of the skills where people have to find what works for them (maybe pacing, maybe not) practice it until it's second nature and then always check the scale and know what a cm looks like on a map. There are lots of ways of practising distance judgment, and hanging it together with map reading and concentration skills
But, on the original quesion, I can't see a problem with 1:10,000 at the schools' champs. As Hocolite says, the teams should have been prepared for this scale.
I have a 1:10,560 of Brindley from 1971....
At regional/national level I think 12 year olds are well able to understand and run on 1;15,000, if it's explained to them. After all, O maps are not the only ones they come across in day to day life, most street maps and road maps have far worse scales!. At other levels and specialist events they should be able to cope with 1:4000 or 1;5000, and be trained to do so. Areas mapped at those scales are now so common that most club coaches should be able to get their juniors some practice on them. Actually, it's more difficult for me to find club coaching areas with 1:15,000 maps locally, as the 1:15,000 tend to be the more "important" and distant O areas.(note to self to try and find some 1:15,000 for 2006 training perhaps)
One of the best changes in orienteering over last 30 years is the huge variety of places that have been mapped. Be interesting to see what place in the UK is the furthest away from an O map: I have 2 folders labelled "local O maps" (usually within ~45km radius) and they're bursting at the seams!
Our juniors rate distance judgment generally as being something they need to practice, so we do. It's one of the skills where people have to find what works for them (maybe pacing, maybe not) practice it until it's second nature and then always check the scale and know what a cm looks like on a map. There are lots of ways of practising distance judgment, and hanging it together with map reading and concentration skills
But, on the original quesion, I can't see a problem with 1:10,000 at the schools' champs. As Hocolite says, the teams should have been prepared for this scale.
- ifititches
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I agree 100% with RJ. 1:10k is fine when using longer courses, but there are a number of reasons I've found that make 1:5k definitely preferable (but a blow up, not a map with more detail on it. I know RJ meant the former, but it seems that one or two contributors seem to think he means the latter)
The print is bigger, and thus easier to read. This is just the same as a child learning to read, and that is exactly what these children are doing. Part of this is not just because the features are bigger, but there is more space between them, so it's easier for the eye to differentiate.
As for distance judgement, I've yet to come across a child at this level who has found 1:10k easier to judge/read than 1:5k. Some find it about the same, many easier, not least because it is easier to distinguish and compare distances at 1:5k.
This ease of reading is especially to the point because courses are so short. When running White /Yellow, children are all too often faced with a mass of red, with closely bunched controls that are very difficult to sort out, especially if one is inexperienced. Equally, it's easier for red to obscure information on the map. At 1:5k, the information is better spaced for inexperienced eyes (and experienced it has to be said!).
As a planner, I started some years ago using 1:5k for White/Yellow courses. There has never been anything but positive feedback for that, and I strongly believe we should be encouraging it to be used more often at this level.
More power to your elbow RJ!
The print is bigger, and thus easier to read. This is just the same as a child learning to read, and that is exactly what these children are doing. Part of this is not just because the features are bigger, but there is more space between them, so it's easier for the eye to differentiate.
As for distance judgement, I've yet to come across a child at this level who has found 1:10k easier to judge/read than 1:5k. Some find it about the same, many easier, not least because it is easier to distinguish and compare distances at 1:5k.
This ease of reading is especially to the point because courses are so short. When running White /Yellow, children are all too often faced with a mass of red, with closely bunched controls that are very difficult to sort out, especially if one is inexperienced. Equally, it's easier for red to obscure information on the map. At 1:5k, the information is better spaced for inexperienced eyes (and experienced it has to be said!).
As a planner, I started some years ago using 1:5k for White/Yellow courses. There has never been anything but positive feedback for that, and I strongly believe we should be encouraging it to be used more often at this level.
More power to your elbow RJ!
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awk - god
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awk wrote:This ease of reading is especially to the point because courses are so short. When running White /Yellow, children are all too often faced with a mass of red, with closely bunched controls that are very difficult to sort out, especially if one is inexperienced. Equally, it's easier for red to obscure information on the map. At 1:5k, the information is better spaced for inexperienced eyes (and experienced it has to be said!).
i agree it must be quite hard for the little kiddies to see some of their maps but going back to where th thread originates (ie schools champs) the kids are meant to be experienced so in theory they should be able to cope with it. i'm not saying i think thats best, but they should be able to.
I like the idea of blowing up the map instead of adding the detail, 'cause in the future the kids are going to have to get used to maps that don't have every detail on them, especially if they get to the level of going abroad (world schools - i wouldn't know about those standard maps as i missed out on all that?)
"Being defeated is only a temporary condition; giving up is what makes it permanent."
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Lizi Beee - brown
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Lizi Beee wrote: but going back to where th thread originates (ie schools champs) the kids are meant to be experienced so in theory they should be able to cope with it. i'm not saying i think thats best, but they should be able to.
The schools champs is not aimed at experienced youngsters. If it was, then the courses wouldn't be at the standards they are. Indeed this is specifically recognised by the event rule writers who have made it a requirement that runners have completed three events beforehand to deal with those who didn't even have a minimal background. Not exactly in depth experience.
As for coping with it. Yes, they can cope, but it's not about coping is it? After all we used to cope with 1:25k black and white photocopies! Don't see much call for those at major races.
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awk - god
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Anonymous wrote:Go back about 10 years and the elites were adamant they preferred not to run on anything but 1:15000.
Looks like as usual I'm stuck in the past. Seeing as it's almost exactly 10 years since I last ran Elite that's about right!
Funny how things come round full circle then - ifititches indicates maps before my time were many scales. In the 80's most maps standardised at 1:15,000 then back to many scales.
Where's that white flag emoticon...
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FatBoy - addict
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