who's responsibility?

[distracted]

I've run a few events recently where detail on the map has been obscured by control circles and/or lines linking controls. It is perhaps difficult in some areas where there is a lot of detail to ensure that absolutely everything is clear on the map - could result in very little control circle at all otherwise! But lines obscuring paths for one is surely avoidable.

The question is who is responsible for ensuring this sort of thing doesn't happen? obviously the planner is the one who cuts the circles/lines but is it perhaps something the controller should pick up/advise on? And is this something that planners are taught to do/look out for?

[Godders]

A quick solution is to put purple below black in the OCAD colors table.

[gross2006]

Should be controller who has final say.... controller should check that printing methods are fair for all competitors & if he feels they are not should advise planner / organiser

[NeilC]

I've run a few events recently where detail on the map has been obscured by control circles and/or lines linking controls.

Both planner and controller should look out for this. On junior courses manually shifting the line a bit can avoid the problem of it obscuring the path. Putting purple beneath black can cause the purple line to disappear if it runs on top of a major path/track.

Did you constructively feedback your observations to the planner/controller? Officials are not always aware that these sort of problems existed.

[distracted]

Did you constructively feedback your observations to the planner/controller? Officials are not always aware that these sort of problems existed.

Not at the time, because it is mainly something I discover when looking closely at the map afterwards, seeing part of a feature sticking out from underneath a circle/line and then realising that's what was seen on the ground at the time.

One of the times this has happened was at a National Event. I was expecting to have to cross a bit of heathery heathland yet there was a path straight across there. naturally I followed the path, but only looking closely at the map afterwards did I see the path underneath the purple line. But it's not just paths - thickets and bits of contour detail e.g. knolls/small depressions/small re-entrants are also caught under circles and can cause confusion. Think how much detail a circle could knock out on somewhere like Leith Hill!

On a slightly different note, unless you ask someone/know the person it is difficult to identify the planner/controller at an event. Should something be introduced to make it obvious who the event officials are?? Even if that means a fluorescent jacket with 'Planner' etc. emblazened across it. Otherwise you can't necessarily tell them apart from the rest of the helpers.

[FatBoy]

One thing that should be done is make sure the correct size circles are being used for the scale. E.g. Using 1:15,000 circles on a 1:5,000 map covers features very close to the centre of the circle.

[swat]

Isn't that the wrong way round? Circles should be 6mm diameter = 90m on a 1:15,000 map and 30m on 1:5,000. So the circle should only enclose features closer to the centre.

[Guest]

Cutting circles and lines is not a new issue - the old "John Bull" overprinters would do this if you sliced a few bits of rubber off. But you had to be really particular to do much. It is a lot easier now.

Planner & controller have to agree what is reasonable and necessary for fairness. Usually necessary only to reveal duplicate features (eg the other boulder) or something affecting route choice (like a path!).

[FatBoy]

Isn't that the wrong way round? Circles should be 6mm diameter = 90m on a 1:15,000 map and 30m on 1:5,000. So the circle should only enclose features closer to the centre.

1:10,000 should have 9mm circles i.e. still 90m. Not sure about 1:5,000 but I think it's still 9mm which is unfortunately only 45m but better than 30m.

[Guest]

Fatboy wrote:

1:10,000 should have 9mm circles i.e. still 90m. Not sure about 1:5,000 but I think it's still 9mm which is unfortunately only 45m but better than 30m.

My interpretation of the BOF Rules 2003 is that control circles should be 6mm diameter at 1:10,000, unless the event is using both 1:15,000 maps AND 1:10,000 maps in which case 9mm diameter circles would be acceptable on the 1:10,00 map.

BOF Rules 2003 Appendix B 3.1.4

The site of each control shall be shown as the centre of a circle of 6mm diameter.

BOF Rules 2003 Appendix B 3.1.12

The dimensions of the course overprint symbols on 1:10,000 (or larger scale) maps
should be as defined in 3.1.3, 3.1.4, and 3.1.5. However, for competitions in which both
1:10 000 and 1:15 000 maps are used, the size of the symbols on the 1:10 000 maps
may be 150% greater than on the 1:15 000 maps.

In my experience, these rules are being widely ignored at events where ONLY 1:10,000 maps are used. I have seen circles of 5.5, 6, 7 and 8.25mm but interestingly never 9mm! In the Southwest 8.25mm seems most popular.

[RJ]

[quote="FatBoy]1:10,000 should have 9mm circles i.e. still 90m. Not sure about 1:5,000 but I think it's still 9mm which is unfortunately only 45m but better than 30m.[/quote]

Rule 7.2.3 The site of each control shall be shown as the centre of a circle of 5 to 6mm diameter.

[RJ]

1:10,000 should have 9mm circles i.e. still 90m. Not sure about 1:5,000 but I think it's still 9mm which is unfortunately only 45m but better than 30m.

Rule 7.2.3 The site of each control shall be shown as the centre of a circle of 5 to 6mm diameter.

[FatBoy]

Looks like I've stirred it up. BOF control rules aside for a second, look at being logical.

We're using 1:10,000 maps for most events because this means they're easier to read for the young and the not so young. The rest of us with developed senses and good eyesight have to put up with it on the basis it would be a nightmare to offer a choice of scales. Therefore it follows logically and per the map rules that the 1:10,000 maps should actually be mapped as if 1:15,000 but using larger symbols. It therefore follows that circle size should be increased accordingly to leave the same amount of detail in the circle not obliterated. We use a circle not a cross for a reason!

It was my understanding of the map rules that this was the case. I suspect the rule quoted (though I can't be bothered to check) is from the course setting rules. Perhaps a contradiction?

[Ed]

Therefore it follows logically and per the map rules that the 1:10,000 maps should actually be mapped as if 1:15,000 but using larger symbols.

yup, 1:10,000 should always be just a direct blow up of the 1:15,000 version, even if the 1:15,000 version doesn't actually exist...

It therefore follows that circle size should be increased accordingly to leave the same amount of detail in the circle not obliterated. We use a circle not a cross for a reason!

I don't see the connection - why does there need to be the same amount of detail in the circle? Fair enough not using a cross as that would obliterate the most important thing (the middle of the circle), but I see no reason to use a bigger circle on a larger scale map (except that it saves having to produce two sets of control descriptions). The circle is just a way of marking where the control is without obscuring the feature itself, the amount of detail within the circle is irrelevant.

[distracted]

It therefore follows that circle size should be increased accordingly to leave the same amount of detail in the circle not obliterated. We use a circle not a cross for a reason!

Perhaps, but my point is there's still detail on the edge of a circle that is being obliterated, and if it is important detail/helpful to navigation near the control it doesn't matter how big the circle is - you still can't see the thing if the circle hasn't been cut! Especially important if there are quite a few of the same feature within the circle e.g. a pit is covered up, when the description is 'middle pit'. With the computer age it doesn't take too much time/effort to ensure that the picture around a control site is clear.

and slightly off point - why can't people get things to do with percentages correct? a 15mm control circle would be a bit big...

1:10 000 and 1:15 000 maps are used, the size of the symbols on the 1:10 000 maps may be 150% greater than on the 1:15 000 maps.