If you look at athletics it is the older runners that take on the distance events.
Many youngsters start at 800/1500 and as they get older move up.
Why does English Schools only run up to 3000m and then only for inters and seniors??
My experience is that many youngsters in the 14-18 range do not survive in athletics because of injury bought on my overtraining
Kelly Holmes is 35 now I think and has only just achieved her best. Has also been blighted by injury at various times.
Paula Ratcliffe not quite as old but only really just got there
I agree with Mrs H and also agree with the comments about youngsters mixing training with swimming and cycling
I have seen very few swimmers forced to give up swimming in the same way that you see problems in running
We are doing an endurance event and physiologically endurance events suit older runners unfortunately.
I would think that statistics should in theory show that younger runners excelll at sprint and middle distance but i would need an expert on stats to back this up for me with harder evidence that my feelings and experience
Elite Training
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Whilst I agree completely barny, the problem is that almost the total emphasis in domestic competition is on longer distances: distances in older junior classes are effectively dictated by the perceived need to provide a progression up to M21 (there isn't anything like the same problem for the women), to my mind encouraging/forcing junior men, in endurance terms, to set their sights far too far, far too early. It takes a very brave junior to stand up to the sorts of pressures that the system seems to demand, especially as its very likely to lead to them not achieving junior teams.
The advent of Middle and Sprint distances should be a force for the good in this respect, but it needs a domestic competition structure that supports these disciplines, particularly for younger competitors.
The advent of Middle and Sprint distances should be a force for the good in this respect, but it needs a domestic competition structure that supports these disciplines, particularly for younger competitors.
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awk - god
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This has been a very interesting and useful discussion to read. For some time I have wondered why BOF has not used athletics coaches qualified to coach endurance running events in giving informed advice on athletic development especially to juniors and the various squads and anyone else who needs it. Orienteering is so fortunate to have dedicated and incredibly highly qualified experienced coaches who can coach orienteering - its skills, techniques and psychological approaches, but my view is that orienteering also needs the input from the athletics coach, from time to time, to get the best out of the orienteering athlete.
It is an incredibly complex process to coach an individual to attain peak performance, requiring a vast knowledge of science and physiology. The cardinal rule though is that the programme must be developed to fit the individual athlete.
A lot of wisdom has been conveyed in these posts - ensuring the young athlete is not overtrained and is given variety; looking at quality of training rather than quantity, developing the training programme for the event - periodisation. Orienteering is a sport that requires more than being able run fast; it requires the flexibility, agility and strength of the jumper and thrower. The training programme as the junior grows older will need to introduce weights, pylometrics, stretching regimes, regular massage, if peak performance is to be achieved. At which stage such extra training is introduced depends solely on the particular characteristics of the athlete. A coach is vital in this process to work with the athlete to assess what can be done.
Ethiopians are good at running endurance events not because of any in built genetic advantage but because training fills those athlete's lives. Most of our athletes including orienteers have other responsibilities. I am just repeating what I said before which is every one is different in their lifestyles, motivations, running experience, and so forth. If a junior has the stress of exams, too much training, competing, worrying about selection, trying to grow up as a teenager- then something will give.
My advice would be for those who want to get faster is to seek out a good coach at a running or athletics club. Like anything you need to be sure you can trust the individual. I know a local coach who gets spectacular results out of teenage females , many competing on the international stage, but none have moved on to senior level because of probable burn out.
Tonight we did a session to help in determining the type of distance most suited to the athlete. Youngsters compete at 800/1500 because 3000 metres plus requires different type of training - more miles not too good for growing bones etc. However the success of an 800 metre runner is based on their genes. They have to be able to run really fast if they are going to make it big on the international stage. However 800/1500 metre training is great for developing speed endurance and laying the foundations for those who will run the longer distances later in life. It develops aerobic capacity and tolerance of lactic acid - both needed if an orienteer is to compete at their best.
(If this post is slightly disjointed my excuse is that the Irish in my household are being exceedingly noisy tonight!)
It is an incredibly complex process to coach an individual to attain peak performance, requiring a vast knowledge of science and physiology. The cardinal rule though is that the programme must be developed to fit the individual athlete.
A lot of wisdom has been conveyed in these posts - ensuring the young athlete is not overtrained and is given variety; looking at quality of training rather than quantity, developing the training programme for the event - periodisation. Orienteering is a sport that requires more than being able run fast; it requires the flexibility, agility and strength of the jumper and thrower. The training programme as the junior grows older will need to introduce weights, pylometrics, stretching regimes, regular massage, if peak performance is to be achieved. At which stage such extra training is introduced depends solely on the particular characteristics of the athlete. A coach is vital in this process to work with the athlete to assess what can be done.
Ethiopians are good at running endurance events not because of any in built genetic advantage but because training fills those athlete's lives. Most of our athletes including orienteers have other responsibilities. I am just repeating what I said before which is every one is different in their lifestyles, motivations, running experience, and so forth. If a junior has the stress of exams, too much training, competing, worrying about selection, trying to grow up as a teenager- then something will give.
My advice would be for those who want to get faster is to seek out a good coach at a running or athletics club. Like anything you need to be sure you can trust the individual. I know a local coach who gets spectacular results out of teenage females , many competing on the international stage, but none have moved on to senior level because of probable burn out.
Tonight we did a session to help in determining the type of distance most suited to the athlete. Youngsters compete at 800/1500 because 3000 metres plus requires different type of training - more miles not too good for growing bones etc. However the success of an 800 metre runner is based on their genes. They have to be able to run really fast if they are going to make it big on the international stage. However 800/1500 metre training is great for developing speed endurance and laying the foundations for those who will run the longer distances later in life. It develops aerobic capacity and tolerance of lactic acid - both needed if an orienteer is to compete at their best.
(If this post is slightly disjointed my excuse is that the Irish in my household are being exceedingly noisy tonight!)
- ER
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seek out an athletics coach? i can kind of see where you are coming from, but on the other hand, what of british athletics results recently? a load of rubbish. from some of my experiences, british athletics coaches are far more likely to push a young athlete too far than a british orienteering coach. my advice to aspiring young orienteers would be to seek out an experienced, sensible, orienteering coach (or former elite athlete?) who has come through the junior ranks and knows the demands, pressures, and emotional rollercoaster that an up and coming junior orienteer has to go through. save the harcore athletics training (as a supplement to orienteering training) until the individual in question has come through the orienteering ranks, knows his/her own body and physical capability...
there are plenty of good, sensible, young orienteering coaches out there; but sometimes the juniors perhaps have to be self motivated enough to go out and find them to request the assistance?
there are plenty of good, sensible, young orienteering coaches out there; but sometimes the juniors perhaps have to be self motivated enough to go out and find them to request the assistance?
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bendover - addict
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I'll second that.
Blowing a horn is great for improving breathing techniques and increasing lung capacity.
I dunno if you could call it scientifically proven but while I played a tuba it was great for me. I've also seen it promoted as a way for youngsters to cope with/manage/work towards overcoming their asthma.
Trouble is, it can be b*gger to learn and quite a time commitment.
Blowing a horn is great for improving breathing techniques and increasing lung capacity.
I dunno if you could call it scientifically proven but while I played a tuba it was great for me. I've also seen it promoted as a way for youngsters to cope with/manage/work towards overcoming their asthma.
Trouble is, it can be b*gger to learn and quite a time commitment.
there's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all
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Bilson - white
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yeah - not exactly the same, but along the same lines.
when i was swimming i used to do three lengths normal, then the fourth length underwater. would keep pushing myself to see how far i could go without needing a breath. eventually managed two lengths underwater. i reckon its good for your lactic acid tolerance as well.
when i was swimming i used to do three lengths normal, then the fourth length underwater. would keep pushing myself to see how far i could go without needing a breath. eventually managed two lengths underwater. i reckon its good for your lactic acid tolerance as well.
Puer tantus fio et effugam
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DesignatedDriver - diehard
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I used to sit and hold my breath when i was watching tv...got it to about 3mins...though it probably doesn't have any relavance here.
Mind you, lung capacity isn't everything, surely it's the speed at which your heart works, and therefore gets oxygen to your muscles/lactic away. Why does it matter if your panting or not?
Mind you, lung capacity isn't everything, surely it's the speed at which your heart works, and therefore gets oxygen to your muscles/lactic away. Why does it matter if your panting or not?
- Guest
awk wrote: "distances in older junior classes are effectively dictated by the perceived need to provide a progression up to M21."
I think that the changes made this year to the junior classes were to bring the major domestic competitions in line with what the top juniors would be expected to run at events like JWOC - which is surely what they are aspiring to ?
I think that the changes made this year to the junior classes were to bring the major domestic competitions in line with what the top juniors would be expected to run at events like JWOC - which is surely what they are aspiring to ?
- Guest
HOCOLITE wrote:Any one have any tips on increasing lung capacity apart from inc in distance in running.
I had research details once regarding VO2 to do with indoor rowers but unfortunately I can't find the source anymore.
It went along the lines of rowers did not increase their oxygen efficiency without training very intensively. It concluded no worth whatsoever in recovery style sessions for improving oxygen efficiency.
Example VO2 session was 3*10mins at near max (85-90%) cardiac rate with 5min rests. Better to be consistent as well apparently - three 3000m would be better than 3100m, 3000m and 2900m.
I'm gonna keep it alive, and continue to be, flying like an eagle to my destiny.
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schnitzer - white
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Anonymous wrote:I think that the changes made this year to the junior classes were to bring the major domestic competitions in line with what the top juniors would be expected to run at events like JWOC - which is surely what they are aspiring to ?
My point is that virtually the entire competition structure is geared up to the longer races. I wasn't aware that there had been changes at the older end this year (I know of those at M14s), but that makes no difference to the main thrust of my argument: whether it's because of the needs of those going to JWOC, or to provide a progression to M21, if one is not prepared to train at what for many juniors will be damaging levels, then you will not get much of a shot at representation. There is no realistic opportunity for a youngster to say "I think these distances are too far at this stage of my development, but I'll train for sprint/middle" not least because there is no domestic structure for them.
I'm not close to the squad any more, so am only speaking as a peripheral observer and may have got this wrong, but it did appear that rather a lot of the potential JWOC team spent much of the year out of competition having gone beyond that breaking point.
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awk - god
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Comments on various items relating to training
1 Someone asked about lung capacity - some sports do seem to be better at this - swimming is one - another seems to be rowing - for example Matthew Pinsent who is outstanding. Someone more knowledgeable than me can probably explain why this is so but it is probably related to VO2 uptake during intensive training!!
2 I agree with many of the comments made by AWK, ER and others particlarly about not killing off growing youngster - the army has a horrendous record in recent years for putting youngster into serious training regimes and injuring them (even worse for female recruits at institutions such as Sandhurst -sorry Colin and Axel - not getting at you)
3 I am a bit wary about the Ethiopians comment - most of the elite runners in that part of the world come from the Rift Valley and hence do what Paula is doing in France - training at altitude - also many have to run distances such as 10 miles each way just to go to school - and we never here about all the casualties enroute and I reckon there must be a fair few.
Finally it is nice to have a good discussion - there has been a lack of comment on serious topics for quite a time and items such as coaching, equipment and other areas seem to go ages without a single comment.
Also please hurry up and get the gallery going again - otherwise how else can I cheat and look at all the maps before I visit an area for an event. At my age I need all the help I can get especially as nobbling the opposition is not quite the done thing. Also it is nice to look at the lictures from various events.
1 Someone asked about lung capacity - some sports do seem to be better at this - swimming is one - another seems to be rowing - for example Matthew Pinsent who is outstanding. Someone more knowledgeable than me can probably explain why this is so but it is probably related to VO2 uptake during intensive training!!
2 I agree with many of the comments made by AWK, ER and others particlarly about not killing off growing youngster - the army has a horrendous record in recent years for putting youngster into serious training regimes and injuring them (even worse for female recruits at institutions such as Sandhurst -sorry Colin and Axel - not getting at you)
3 I am a bit wary about the Ethiopians comment - most of the elite runners in that part of the world come from the Rift Valley and hence do what Paula is doing in France - training at altitude - also many have to run distances such as 10 miles each way just to go to school - and we never here about all the casualties enroute and I reckon there must be a fair few.
Finally it is nice to have a good discussion - there has been a lack of comment on serious topics for quite a time and items such as coaching, equipment and other areas seem to go ages without a single comment.
Also please hurry up and get the gallery going again - otherwise how else can I cheat and look at all the maps before I visit an area for an event. At my age I need all the help I can get especially as nobbling the opposition is not quite the done thing. Also it is nice to look at the lictures from various events.
- Barny of Blandford
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