Graeme,
where did you get that link from about the effect of pack formation??? As it is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard of. Its Orienteering, simple as that, its always gonna happen. I know the IOF are trying to bring in ways of stopping this, but they just seem to make the sport even weirder than micro o. Pack formation helps you some weeks and not the others, its just the way it is...
MICRO O in WOC 2006 for Middle
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[quote="BJesus"]Graeme,
where did you get that link from about the effect of pack formation??? As it is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard of.
I guess Graeme will put up a robust defence of his work in light of this critical and constructive assessment of his work?
where did you get that link from about the effect of pack formation??? As it is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard of.
I guess Graeme will put up a robust defence of his work in light of this critical and constructive assessment of his work?
"If A is success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut" Abraham Lincoln
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LostAgain - diehard
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LostAgain wrote:I guess Graeme will put up a robust defence of his work in light of this critical and constructive assessment of his work?
BJesus obviously has not read it, as it agrees with all the points (s)he makes against it!
In particular, the article takes no view of whether pack formation is a "good" or "bad" thing - it simply shows what the size of the effect is (briefly, the average speed-up for a pair of runners working together is about 4%) and how many packs will form for a given race format.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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I have to agree with BJ on this. jobby happens one day and shines another. And furthermore you still need to be fit enough to keep up with a pack, and be in a start position that will be effected by a pack, and have a seeded start position in order to be in that start position, and therefore be an able orienteer in the first place.
Tetley and its Golden Farce.
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Nails - diehard
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Of course for the lesser mortals whose running capability exceeds their navigation skill a tow can give some outstanding results far exceeding 4%. Of course I would not include myself in this Where my navigation outstrips my fitness more often than not.
"If A is success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut" Abraham Lincoln
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LostAgain - diehard
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LostAgain wrote:Of course for the lesser mortals whose running capability exceeds their navigation skill a tow can give some outstanding results far exceeding 4%.
4% average means 8% for one person just following. Also, at WOC, packs were very unlikely to make big mistakes and this isn't included in the 4%. Like Nails says, the analysis is at the world champs where there aren't so many big mistakes anyway.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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i have certainly read it, it wasnt that i am saying what you have written is wrong, (im sure with the information you have been given it is very much correct) more that i just cant believe anyone would write a paper on that to start with!!!! And that it may turn some people result into a lesser one in some peoples eyes.
As for pack formation, im also very suprised how much crap people like andrej khramov have received. The swedes seem to have complained a lot about him, and that most of his results have been received while running in packs. Granted this may be the case, but i think the guy has copped more slack than he should have. He has deserved his starting position each time from either qualifications or WRE list. The guy is either an incredible athlete or the worlds luckiest guy......
Does anyone ever complain about jenny or heli getting a ride of simone?? maybe thats just a topic i should bring up on alternativet
As for pack formation, im also very suprised how much crap people like andrej khramov have received. The swedes seem to have complained a lot about him, and that most of his results have been received while running in packs. Granted this may be the case, but i think the guy has copped more slack than he should have. He has deserved his starting position each time from either qualifications or WRE list. The guy is either an incredible athlete or the worlds luckiest guy......
Does anyone ever complain about jenny or heli getting a ride of simone?? maybe thats just a topic i should bring up on alternativet
Go orienteering in Great Britain......... its financially better off than Australia:)
- BJesus
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BJesus wrote:it is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard of.
...
BJesus wrote:it wasnt that i am saying what you have written is wrong, (im sure with the information you have been given it is very much correct)
Glad we've got that one sorted out then.
Graeme
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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back onto micro O, I'm intrigued as to how an area would have to be mapped to make this work.
The exercise Dave Gittus organised at 2005 coaching conference, which I really enjoyed, was done on a large scale, very detailed map with almost every conceivable feature accurately included. Seems to me it might highly restrict the areas suitable for middle distance if the whole competition area had to be mapped up to that degree of detail. Or could you get away with just mapping the bits where the micro controls were located in that detail, and the rest with less on? If the mapping isn't spot on there are going to be lots of protests
If there were software to handle it, and real-time signals from controls to spectator area , I could see micro O making a potential new discipline out of score orienteering though! (well it has been a tough few weeks at work since the 6 days, so I'm not apologising)
"Micro score O " would avoid packs by having a compulsory different first and penultimate control for each competitor, and then have some micro O controls out there (quite a lot, and some visible to spectators shouting misleading comments) which gave you score penalties if you visited them rather than the control on the map There would also be some non-micro controls.Competitors wouldn't know where to expect the micro O control sites.
Mass start everyone, back within time limit, and spectators/internet audience already know from flashed up real-time animated massive score board which poor *** is wasting his /her time sprinting to be in on time because they've incurred lots of wrong punch penalties....Winner gets a real-time big cheer.Prize giving within minutes of mass finish. All done and dusted in 60mins and the TV crew can be off to next job.....
Sure it could be made meaner and nastier, but you get the idea.
The exercise Dave Gittus organised at 2005 coaching conference, which I really enjoyed, was done on a large scale, very detailed map with almost every conceivable feature accurately included. Seems to me it might highly restrict the areas suitable for middle distance if the whole competition area had to be mapped up to that degree of detail. Or could you get away with just mapping the bits where the micro controls were located in that detail, and the rest with less on? If the mapping isn't spot on there are going to be lots of protests
If there were software to handle it, and real-time signals from controls to spectator area , I could see micro O making a potential new discipline out of score orienteering though! (well it has been a tough few weeks at work since the 6 days, so I'm not apologising)
"Micro score O " would avoid packs by having a compulsory different first and penultimate control for each competitor, and then have some micro O controls out there (quite a lot, and some visible to spectators shouting misleading comments) which gave you score penalties if you visited them rather than the control on the map There would also be some non-micro controls.Competitors wouldn't know where to expect the micro O control sites.
Mass start everyone, back within time limit, and spectators/internet audience already know from flashed up real-time animated massive score board which poor *** is wasting his /her time sprinting to be in on time because they've incurred lots of wrong punch penalties....Winner gets a real-time big cheer.Prize giving within minutes of mass finish. All done and dusted in 60mins and the TV crew can be off to next job.....
Sure it could be made meaner and nastier, but you get the idea.
- ifititches
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ifititches wrote:Competitors wouldn't know where to expect the micro O control sites.
This seems a little unfair within the context of a score event as the controls a competitor visits could be quite different. This means the chance of gaining penalty loops would have much more to do with which controls you chose to visit (i.e. luck) than your ability to micro-o
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PeterG - diehard
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I've got to say that micro-o in WOC middle seems like a jobby ides to me. The concept to start with doesn't really appeal to me, it might be alright for the odd event, a bit of training fun or whatever....but putting it into WOC middle will devalue the race a lot I think. Middle races and sprint races being introduced to WOC, great ideas, both very challenging....but micro-o...hmm
Also I would agree that micro - o probably won't help participation, even if it gets TV coverage. If orienteering has suffered over recent years from a participation decline, it is not alone. An obvious example to me is rugby in Hawick where I come from. It is very much the number 1 sport in the town, but since my dad played, numbers have dropped a lot. The team he used to play for used to field two teams easily, but recently they folded, unable to get 1 team. Why is this? Not because of lack of rugby on TV anyway. The problem is probably mainly due to peoples attitudes to sport in general i.e. just don't bother, do other things, and also juniors not continuing to senior teams. It would be great to have more orienteering on TV, but do we need it to be micro-o? Do we want it to be micro-o?!
Also I would agree that micro - o probably won't help participation, even if it gets TV coverage. If orienteering has suffered over recent years from a participation decline, it is not alone. An obvious example to me is rugby in Hawick where I come from. It is very much the number 1 sport in the town, but since my dad played, numbers have dropped a lot. The team he used to play for used to field two teams easily, but recently they folded, unable to get 1 team. Why is this? Not because of lack of rugby on TV anyway. The problem is probably mainly due to peoples attitudes to sport in general i.e. just don't bother, do other things, and also juniors not continuing to senior teams. It would be great to have more orienteering on TV, but do we need it to be micro-o? Do we want it to be micro-o?!
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
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