An interesting divergence of opinion as to what constitutes a colour course today.
DVO Crich Chase District event: Brown = 6.7k, 300m climb
Eel Tarn District event: Blue = 7.5k, > 300m climb
Odd or what?!
Interesting colour coding!
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I can't speak for Eel Tarn (although the blue times did look a little long) but I can say Crich was actually on the tougher side of a brown course compared to some I've done.
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FatBoy - addict
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If there is still a good range of lengths why does it matter because people can still look at the lengths before they enter and decide which course to run.
"I ran until my legs burned and my veins were pumping battery acid.....................then i ran some more"
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Dan - green
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Re: Interesting colour coding!
awk wrote:Odd or what?!
Don't think so! Surely it all depends on the terrain. If it's fast running then you would expect a longer course.
Crich today was quite tough and the distance felt about right, although I can't speak for Eel tarn.
'They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist.....' Last words of General John Sedgewick, 1864.
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Mike - orange
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Dan, I do agree. I do think people choose courses on distance. For instance, I expected to do blue at Eel Tarn, but the distance looked way too long for me, and I thoroughly enjoyed my green course run (and blue would have been too far).
So, why have colour designations then, especially when they don't really cross compare between events (which was the main reason for having them)? Why not (at least at TD5) just put on a range of courses of different distances?
Just a thought with simplification in mind.
So, why have colour designations then, especially when they don't really cross compare between events (which was the main reason for having them)? Why not (at least at TD5) just put on a range of courses of different distances?
Just a thought with simplification in mind.
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awk - god
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awk wrote:So, why have colour designations then, especially when they don't really cross compare between events (which was the main reason for having them)? Why not (at least at TD5) just put on a range of courses of different distances?
Because not everyone knows the difference between the Trossachs and Tentsmuir. Both in Scotland. begin with a T, nine letters, lots of contour detail how different can they be?
Answer: one is about twice as fast as the other.
10km on Tentsmuir and I'm feeling short changed, 10km on the Trossachs and order me an ambulance please.
Graeme
PS. Shortest ever M21 course I did was ~6.7km. Winning time 119 minutes, by a world champs runner...
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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OK - so then the standards DO have to cross compare. If one shouldn't use distances (which I actually disagree with - I prefer the old system of simply using a range of distances for a colour with harder areas at the shorter end and easier areas at the longer), then all that's left is the time range that 'most competitors' take - which is so broad as to be virtually meaningless.
FWIW, even then, the Eel Tarn Blue course does appear to have been overlong. Fortunately, I knew the area sufficiently well to be able to work that one out before entering.
This all may seem trivial (and may well be), but it does seem to me that since the new guidelines came in, colour standards have become increasingly erratic, with ever instances where Green/Blue/Brown have looked wrong. I don't think the 'most competitors' guidance is helpful, and planners are obviously ignoring distance guidelines. By the reaction to this thread, maybe I'm wrong.
(Actually, what I find most bothersome, is the fact that there is no provision for a short TD5 course - having it as 4.5km excludes a lot of older competitors, but that's another issue).
FWIW, even then, the Eel Tarn Blue course does appear to have been overlong. Fortunately, I knew the area sufficiently well to be able to work that one out before entering.
This all may seem trivial (and may well be), but it does seem to me that since the new guidelines came in, colour standards have become increasingly erratic, with ever instances where Green/Blue/Brown have looked wrong. I don't think the 'most competitors' guidance is helpful, and planners are obviously ignoring distance guidelines. By the reaction to this thread, maybe I'm wrong.
(Actually, what I find most bothersome, is the fact that there is no provision for a short TD5 course - having it as 4.5km excludes a lot of older competitors, but that's another issue).
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awk - god
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awk wrote:Actually, what I find most bothersome, is the fact that there is no provision for a short TD5 course - having it as 4.5km excludes a lot of older competitors, but that's another issue.
I agree. The light green when it came in (late eighties?) filled an important gap that was there when I was a progressing junior, but if planned correctly isn't right for the eldest competitors.
When I've planned in the past I've always used the ratio to M21L as I find I can judge M21L length fairly accurately from personal judgement of speed. As we've said before the three sets of guidelines (length, M21L ratio and time band for most competitors) are often contradictory.
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FatBoy - addict
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awk wrote:(Actually, what I find most bothersome, is the fact that there is no provision for a short TD5 course - having it as 4.5km excludes a lot of older competitors, but that's another issue).
This is a recurring theme in East Anglia, with some M/W70 competitors wanting TD5 (don't we all in East Anglia?:wink:), but not wanting to run a full length green course but wanting a more technical challenge than a light green. Do we need to have a short green?, or is this just making things more complicated?
Maybe...
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PorkyFatBoy - diehard
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lenths of colour courses need to be consistant in a "district" because competitors may be wanting to score for a galloppen (eg. at Eel Tarn) so always need to do the same course.
Having huge length range might stop them doing this so they might end up with too few scores in a colour
Having huge length range might stop them doing this so they might end up with too few scores in a colour
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Rookie - green
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Rookie wrote:lenths of colour courses need to be consistant in a "district" because competitors may be wanting to score for a galloppen (eg. at Eel Tarn) so always need to do the same course.
Having huge length range might stop them doing this so they might end up with too few scores in a colour
Bollocks What needs to be consistant is the estimated winning time & the technical difficulty. A 6km course can vary in winning time by 100% or more depending on the terrain (see Graemes comment about Trossachs & Tentsmuir above)
- gross2006
reading down, the clear answer was always going to be what gross said.
surely its a case of trying to make the course a length which gives the right spectrum of times. so if you want blue winning time to be 45-70 mins (i have NO idea what guidelines say), then you will need 8km odd in clumber park, 4.5-5km in trossachs?
a question- for the 'average time' of the field, is this calculated with whole field or do you throw away top and bottom 3? i ask this as surely its the average time the course has to satisfy.
surely its a case of trying to make the course a length which gives the right spectrum of times. so if you want blue winning time to be 45-70 mins (i have NO idea what guidelines say), then you will need 8km odd in clumber park, 4.5-5km in trossachs?
a question- for the 'average time' of the field, is this calculated with whole field or do you throw away top and bottom 3? i ask this as surely its the average time the course has to satisfy.
Pictures are better than words because sometimes words are big and hard to understand.
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Mr. Furness - light green
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awk wrote:. For instance, I expected to do blue at Eel Tarn, but the distance looked way too long for me, and I thoroughly enjoyed my green course run (and blue would have been too far).
Did you consider declaring yourself non comp?
When this happens it has an impact on Green colour standards and particularly effects the older competitors. It used to spell disaster for women but with the women only standard when applied it is not so bad. I know colour standards don't bother experienced Orienteers but are definately relevant to the new kids on the block.
Hocolite
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guidelines give a "time for most competitors" range, a "normal length" range and a course length ratio to a nominal M21L (RWT 68 minutes).
For Blue these are 55-90, 5.0-7.5 and 0.60 respectively, and for Brown 65-105, 7.5-10.0 and 0.88.
A 7.5km blue would mean that the nominal M21L should be 12.5km, which I'd say was there or thereabouts right for Eel and Stony, probably at most 1km too long.
A 6.7km brown would mean a 7.6km M21L, which sounds about 2-3km too short for Crich (BNOC M21L 7.4km won in 56, or would have been 53 if sheffield students had any numeracy skills).
Conclusions? Probably that the guidelines are only guidelines and frequently need to be interpreted sensibly
For Blue these are 55-90, 5.0-7.5 and 0.60 respectively, and for Brown 65-105, 7.5-10.0 and 0.88.
A 7.5km blue would mean that the nominal M21L should be 12.5km, which I'd say was there or thereabouts right for Eel and Stony, probably at most 1km too long.
A 6.7km brown would mean a 7.6km M21L, which sounds about 2-3km too short for Crich (BNOC M21L 7.4km won in 56, or would have been 53 if sheffield students had any numeracy skills).
Conclusions? Probably that the guidelines are only guidelines and frequently need to be interpreted sensibly
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Ed - diehard
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