ultimately it must be good to have two competitors on the market. then systems will keep on improving - better technology to meet the demands of the competitors/consumers.
i mean lets face it, if it weren't for burger king then mcdonalds would still make rubbish burgers.
actually maybe thats not such a good example...
Emit vs SI....
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
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Sven wrote:Stodge, So they are finally catching up with EMIT then!!?
Ill hold my hand up and point out I do work for Sportident UK on occasion but from a club perspective the new gear is really cool.
an example
There is summer use of a ski lift somewhere in the alps where you hire an si card at the top, go off and do a permanent course (the new controls are live all the time), then when you download there is a GSM modem as well as a print out station, so your splits appear on the web instantly with a password on your print out to add your name etc to the site when you get home.
The new splits printer can have names assigned to control codes – eg JK string course day2 where instead on the splits print saying 101 it said Egg or Bunny
No computers involved.
Would be great to get a setup like that in the UK but I suspect the vandals might get to them...
I think the competition is good as bendover says as it makes them push the boundaries.
Just look how far all of the systems have come in the last 8 or so years
Stodge's Blog http://www.stodgell.co.uk
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stodge - blue
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Events can only be hands-free if everyone has V3, and they cost £40 if you don't hire every time.
Still prefer SI - I like the way you can have it on the same hand as everything else. And the splits results are actually worth having. And yes, I prefer a beep confirmation.
Give me a wrist-mounted Emit I can read without looking like Ted Rogers doing his 321 gesture, which works hands-free in a reliable way, and I'll buy one...
For the moment, I'll stick with SI and hire Emit when required.
Still prefer SI - I like the way you can have it on the same hand as everything else. And the splits results are actually worth having. And yes, I prefer a beep confirmation.
Give me a wrist-mounted Emit I can read without looking like Ted Rogers doing his 321 gesture, which works hands-free in a reliable way, and I'll buy one...
For the moment, I'll stick with SI and hire Emit when required.
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Ant W - light green
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As someone who now prefers Emit, its more reliable (only heard of the one person mentioned in this thread having problems) and you don't forever get the problems with failed units. I will say the new boxes look great, however just how much will it cost to replace all the units clubs already? Clubs already have put a huge amount of money into SI's coffers and got a system that's not altogether reliable. I recall a night Champs when 4 units failed, about 25% of those on the course. It seems farcial that you have to have back up punches "in case a unit fails". Don't think anybody used them at the Sprint Champs. They were going too fast!!
- Tatty
- guru
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only heard of the one person mentioned in this thread having problems
Then here's another one...a friend of mine did a colour coded down in the New Forest a few months ago, got around her course and downloaded her Emit card and got a pish printout that had no useful info on it at all because the card had failed. The downloaders apologised, and the organiser gave her a refund because there was no way her splits could be resurrected. She didn't appear in the results, and the organisers comments in the results were along the lines of "another resounding success for Emit...". She wasn't impressed
At least with SI you can download the boxes (even if it's just the start and finish) to complete the course.
I recall a night Champs when 4 units failed, about 25% of those on the course
I think that will have been one of ours when our SI kit was being used for a National Event the following day. We hired in the night event kit from a neighbouring area and were very embarrassed with what happened (as was the "keeper of the kit" from the neighbouring area who was at the event). None of ours went down on the Sunday.
Alot of SI reliability depends on kit maintenance. I spent hours in December and January replacing all our SI batteries so the boxes were able to be used at an event prior to JK to make sure the boxes were sound, and we haven't had a box failure at an event for ages. Also, if they are put out the night before, or kept in a car boot overnight and it's cold they are more likely to go down. It's risk management.
I believe the new SI boxes are the same price as the old units, and as well as being much smaller and lighter they are pre-programmed. All you need to do is dib as you put the controls out, and the box switches on. We used the system on the string course at JK and it was great (Teenie went to bed that night saying "Holly needs beep beep" - hope she's still saying something similar in 10 years time!).
Make the most of life - you're a long time dead.
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Stodgetta - brown
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I would agree with Stodgetta. We've had much better reliability from our system since we started changed the batteries earlier, rather than trying to squeeze yet another event out of tired batteries.
In comparing the reliability of the systems,we nee to remember that Emit use (in the south at least) is confined to a few clubs,mainly BAOC, using their kit week in week out, and hiring their services out to other clubs. That way, they keep a tight check on the kit and they get used to its little ways.
SI kit tends to be owned by many clubs, with lots of people using them. In the early days of the system, with different teams at each event, they often made the same mistakes over and over again.
Recently it looks as though many clubs have got a dedicated SI team who are used to the system and reliability issues with the software and problems have decreased.
Most of the problems with SI kit over the years are down to human error due to lack of familiarity with the system, rather than equipment failure
In comparing the reliability of the systems,we nee to remember that Emit use (in the south at least) is confined to a few clubs,mainly BAOC, using their kit week in week out, and hiring their services out to other clubs. That way, they keep a tight check on the kit and they get used to its little ways.
SI kit tends to be owned by many clubs, with lots of people using them. In the early days of the system, with different teams at each event, they often made the same mistakes over and over again.
Recently it looks as though many clubs have got a dedicated SI team who are used to the system and reliability issues with the software and problems have decreased.
Most of the problems with SI kit over the years are down to human error due to lack of familiarity with the system, rather than equipment failure
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kedge - light green
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so thats 2 times emit has failed. the only times i have ever seen problems is due to human error. it certainly is very rare that a card actually fails. did you send it back to emit?
its seems to me lots of people take a very British attitude towards emit. Its different so it must be wrong.
"i dont like carrying it, its to big and clumsy, i have to turn my hand around to get it in, there's no beep, the flash isn't good enough, the online results are crap"
The World Championships in Sweden last year was emit, interesting as they use Sport Ident as their main system there.
Now I appreciate that the online results are a bit jobby, but have a look at these ones from the Jukola:
http://www.jukola.com/tulokset/en/j2004_ju/
And I'l think you'll agree that they are great. But then Finland is a county that embraces technology, and knows about orienteering.
emit is going to be around, so you might as well get used to it. whats the point in moaning before an event, you would still have to use it, and every will be using the same (v2/v3 differences, but how many people have sportident v6?)
Both systems are great, both systems have positives and negatives.
i wonder if it would be the other way round if emit had established itself first, and now sportIdent were bringing out their new range.
Fear of change[/quote]
its seems to me lots of people take a very British attitude towards emit. Its different so it must be wrong.
"i dont like carrying it, its to big and clumsy, i have to turn my hand around to get it in, there's no beep, the flash isn't good enough, the online results are crap"
The World Championships in Sweden last year was emit, interesting as they use Sport Ident as their main system there.
Now I appreciate that the online results are a bit jobby, but have a look at these ones from the Jukola:
http://www.jukola.com/tulokset/en/j2004_ju/
And I'l think you'll agree that they are great. But then Finland is a county that embraces technology, and knows about orienteering.
emit is going to be around, so you might as well get used to it. whats the point in moaning before an event, you would still have to use it, and every will be using the same (v2/v3 differences, but how many people have sportident v6?)
Both systems are great, both systems have positives and negatives.
i wonder if it would be the other way round if emit had established itself first, and now sportIdent were bringing out their new range.
Fear of change[/quote]
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mharky - team nopesport
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The EMIT cards do get tired, as Rich found out much to his dismay (and our continuous amusement) on the Halden Tour this year. We were using the first set the GB Juniors started using when I was in the squad, so I guess they were 5 or so years old. Nothing registered on about three of the cards for him. I guess something built in to warn you they'd reached this point would be useful - I'm guessing with the start system used at BEOC this would pick up on a dead card?
Will? We've got proper fire now!
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Becks - god
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I'm not anti-Emit (honest) - I just prefer SI at the moment. The SI system seems quite mature - the card is ergonomically well-designed, the indication that a punch has worked is definite, etc...
I do however accept that the SI method is never going to cope well with the heavy throughput you get in sprints, mass starts and relays. So the fact that Emit is evolving to a hands-free method is welcome, and I expect that it will eventually become the system of choice.
But I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out what's currently not so good about it. How else will it improve?
As for the splits results, to be honest I'm a little uncomfortable complaining about them, because if I cared that much, maybe I should write better software myself...
I do however accept that the SI method is never going to cope well with the heavy throughput you get in sprints, mass starts and relays. So the fact that Emit is evolving to a hands-free method is welcome, and I expect that it will eventually become the system of choice.
But I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out what's currently not so good about it. How else will it improve?
As for the splits results, to be honest I'm a little uncomfortable complaining about them, because if I cared that much, maybe I should write better software myself...
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Ant W - light green
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The problem for SI with contactless punching (unlike Emit) is the need for a signal generator in the pin (i.e. a visual or audible signal). This would make the pin larger and heavier thereby reducing the advantage that the system has of being small and lightweight. Hence Emit have the advantage there.
Batteries in Emit bricks are something else. They last on average around 5 years as far as I am aware. Like I said in a previous thread, I was involved in a competition (a ski-o World Champs selection race) where the battery failed in one competitor's card meaning nothing was recorded. Luckily we could confirm she had been at all controls and start and her finish times from observations and other competitors. Not a problem with SI but if you forget to clear the card before running and exceed the max number of recordable controls... This is not such a big problem now with the newer SI pins.
Talking of back-up pin punches, I see there won't be any at the 10-mila. A justifiable vote of confidence for the electronic punching technology or just a way to reduce the risk for appeals?
Batteries in Emit bricks are something else. They last on average around 5 years as far as I am aware. Like I said in a previous thread, I was involved in a competition (a ski-o World Champs selection race) where the battery failed in one competitor's card meaning nothing was recorded. Luckily we could confirm she had been at all controls and start and her finish times from observations and other competitors. Not a problem with SI but if you forget to clear the card before running and exceed the max number of recordable controls... This is not such a big problem now with the newer SI pins.
Talking of back-up pin punches, I see there won't be any at the 10-mila. A justifiable vote of confidence for the electronic punching technology or just a way to reduce the risk for appeals?
- Domhnull Mor
- light green
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I agree with previous comments about the software - this shouldn't be in the issue as both types of hardware are open book standards - so write new ones.
Hardware wise things are improving on both sides of the fence:
With EMIT v2 it was very tricky to see if you'd actually punched looking for a dim LED but with the v3 and "wafting" you can see easily on the LCD you've got it. The awkward carrying due to size is no longer and issue with the wrist bands (not sure about BEOC sprint - talking from the MTBO race but I'd use one for o-ing although will have to find a new place for control descriptions!).
With SI the battery life and programming them correctly were a pain for some people (and for smaller races) but that is now gone with the new versions.
However I think there is a fundamental difference between the systems which will never change. With SI the card is completely dumb and all the gubbins are in the unit. With EMIT the technology is half and half. Upside of SI is cards last for ever and can never fail unless lost or snapped - this is good because this is the part of the system is the bit that gets shoved in o-boxes then run around the forest at speed. The downside however is you'll never get contact-free punching (asuming this is something you want) because there's no power in the card. No-one's mentioned Joe Lee yet - this has all the power in the card
Hardware wise things are improving on both sides of the fence:
With EMIT v2 it was very tricky to see if you'd actually punched looking for a dim LED but with the v3 and "wafting" you can see easily on the LCD you've got it. The awkward carrying due to size is no longer and issue with the wrist bands (not sure about BEOC sprint - talking from the MTBO race but I'd use one for o-ing although will have to find a new place for control descriptions!).
With SI the battery life and programming them correctly were a pain for some people (and for smaller races) but that is now gone with the new versions.
However I think there is a fundamental difference between the systems which will never change. With SI the card is completely dumb and all the gubbins are in the unit. With EMIT the technology is half and half. Upside of SI is cards last for ever and can never fail unless lost or snapped - this is good because this is the part of the system is the bit that gets shoved in o-boxes then run around the forest at speed. The downside however is you'll never get contact-free punching (asuming this is something you want) because there's no power in the card. No-one's mentioned Joe Lee yet - this has all the power in the card
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FatBoy - addict
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Re SI Unit failure, I believe that a large percentage of failure has been down to poor maintenance as HOC check and change batteries before every use on either their own or hired kit and have not had these problems.
As for the cold we mislaid two units on a National event a while back and they were discovered several months later still insitu and worked fine despite their long period in the forest.
HOCOLITE
As for the cold we mislaid two units on a National event a while back and they were discovered several months later still insitu and worked fine despite their long period in the forest.
HOCOLITE
- Guest
Please correct me if i'm wrong.
a. cost aspects - i believe EMIT controls are a lot cheaper - i.e. better for clubs (obviously the 'brick' is a lot more pricey than the SI SI Card)
However if you are upgrading your EMIT brick to newer versions i believe you get a pretty healthy discount.
b. Maintenance - don't thie EMIT control require hardly any maintenance.
a. cost aspects - i believe EMIT controls are a lot cheaper - i.e. better for clubs (obviously the 'brick' is a lot more pricey than the SI SI Card)
However if you are upgrading your EMIT brick to newer versions i believe you get a pretty healthy discount.
b. Maintenance - don't thie EMIT control require hardly any maintenance.
- ivan
- string
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