Junior badge courses (again!)

[Guest]

I know this has been discussed a lot in the not so distant past, but I've been really struck how short some junior courses have been getting lately. The courses were certainly meant to be shorter, but things appear to be gettingt out of hand.

When the pilot was run, the guidelines stated that JM/JW4 should be 3.3k +/- 20%, i.e. between 2.65 and 3.95k: at the bottom end if really rough and tough, at the top on flat, fast stuff. These were generally shorter than previously, at least for the boys.

However, recent events have regularly seen rougher (but not that rough!) areas way below that (2.2k and 2.4k in the past fortnight, and 1.7k not so long ago!!), and flat areas barely exceeding the mid-distance, let alone at the top end of the scale.

The fact is that the course ratios may be right when compared with the guidelines (I've only looked at a few, and they are generally OK), but the distances are fairly obviously wrong (at least to me). It's getting a bit silly when a 12 year old has to run JM5M in order to be able to practice for his age class national events (M14) - JM5M was always meant to equate to M16 (and this indicates that JM5M is too short too. It should be 5.5k+/- 15%).

As many people know, I've been a supporter of shorter distance courses for juniors, believing that they need to get technique sorted out at speed before adding distance, and that they need to be able to progress at their own pace, but this all seems to have got a bit over the top.

Looks to me as if either planners need better support, or (what I suspect is more the case) the guidelines need another look - and preferably removing the ratio, at least for junior courses.

[awk]

And I didn't get the usual nopesport message warning me that I was going to write as a guest (nor did automatic log in work). Grrrrrr. Obviously even more incompetent at this logging in than I thought.

[Guest]

It isn't just the juniors where the courses are getting shorter and shorter. At Lydney yesterday the M45L winning time was 41 minutes; M55L 46 minutes.
The ratios are fine providing the planner gets the M21L course right, but all too often they are just making everyone's courses too short.

[helen]

also, at lydney, the JW5S was only 3.5km! I entered late, after the details were up, so chose to do JW5L which was 5.4km, much more like what I'm used to running, even though im still W16. Also, i was confused by the offering of a JW5M, a good idea in my opinion, but does the class technically exist?

[distracted]

Also, i was confused by the offering of a JW5M, a good idea in my opinion, but does the class technically exist?

think we've had this discussion before, and the answer was no then so I don't see why it should have changed...

[graeme]

I'm just in the process of updating guidelines for Scottish C3 events. We haven't even caught up with the latest guideline (see my other post).

ScotJOS already lobbied me about this. I'm intrinsically sceptical about squaddies asking for short courses to be made longer, but I've never been a junior so if you want something changed now is a good time to hassle me.

Graeme (SOA Competitions convenor)

PS. If posting here be aware that I'm not likely to pay much attention to anonymous/pseudonymous comments. Feel free to pm me.

[m]

I am totally against making junior courses shorter. I know everyone doesn't want to be an elite but I think the short courses here in Britain make it difficult for good juniors to prepare well for competitions like JWOC. For some people running the classic race at JWOC will be the first proper classic race they have ever done. How are you supposed to do well if you haven't been able to run courses like that before? I know that people can run up in order to run a decent length course and that is what I have always done but it would be nice if we didn't have to. The difference between the JW5L and W21 courses is silly, JW5L needs to be made longer and if people don't want to run that far they run the short.

[graeme]

The difference between the JW5L and W21 courses is silly, JW5L needs to be made longer and if people don't want to run that far they run the short.

At SOLs JW5L is one course shorter than W21L.
So are you saying we should abolish JW5L, and go straight from JW5S to JW5L, more than doubling the length?

I could understand if there was no longer course, but as it stands, you can choose to run competitively on JW5L or W21L.

You dont have to act your age - I seldom do

Graeme

[Guest]

Same with English Regional events, JW5L is one course below W21L.

[awk]

Same with English Regional events, JW5L is one course below W21L.

This is about as it should be. The reason that there was no JW5M, was that when putting the original proposal together, JW5S-JW5L-W21L provided a logical progression, and if you're ready to run the W21L at regional events, then run the Women's Open class - you don't need a separate junior class. The boys needed another TD5 course to provide the linkage to the longer senior courses, and JM5L should be approximately the same distance as W21L (but not necessarily exactly so).

Still doesn't explain why the JM/JW courses are shorter than the guidelines!

[Jene]

i dont think theres a problem with JW5L courses...i'v ebeen running between 5 and 7km in the last few events im running on...which seems ok to me...i dont think the JW5L can b made much longer and the jump from 5s to 5l is already huge...t'was nearly 2k at the ebor, barns cliff wasnt it? n its always quite a big jump..and i know i found it a long jump and was out for well over an hour every time i went out till i adjusted to longer courses so the 4 / 5s def need to be made longer in my opinion... as it'd put me off orienteering if id been doing 4k n then suddenly well over 5 every race...esp if i wasnt that fit

[RWK]

In my opinion, courses are getting way too short. At Barnscliff like weekend I was running JM4 and only got 2.2km. This would have been OK if it had been on the steep valley side but it was in the bottom with only 65m of climb. I would have expected something like 3.5 to 4.0km on that terrain.

[*Carol*]

i dont think theres a problem with JW5L courses...i'v ebeen running between 5 and 7km in the last few events im running on...which seems ok to me...i dont think the JW5L can b made much longer and the jump from 5s to 5l is already huge...t'was nearly 2k at the ebor, barns cliff wasnt it? n its always quite a big jump..and i know i found it a long jump and was out for well over an hour every time i went out till i adjusted to longer courses so the 4 / 5s def need to be made longer in my opinion... as it'd put me off orienteering if id been doing 4k n then suddenly well over 5 every race...esp if i wasnt that fit

maybe if JW5L is the right length, there is the need for JW5M to bridge the gap between L and S? i noticed a large jump between S and L (or 16A and 18A) but didn't want to run my B course as there were very few people on it and i wanted to stay with the the bulk of my age group. and theres no point saying JW5M is stupid because it'd be like a W17A, aren't the JM/Ws supposed to be ageless, therefore it wouldnt matter?

[graeme]

Same with English Regional events, JW5L is one course below W21L.

Still doesn't explain why the JM/JW courses are shorter than the guidelines!

JM/W5S has a length ratio of 0.32 in Scotland, and 0.39 in England, a 20% difference, or about 15mins.

[Guest]

i dont think the JW5L can b made much longer and the jump from 5s to 5l is already huge...t'was nearly 2k at the ebor, barns cliff wasnt it?

Well, that was because the JW5L and JM5L were deliberately planned longer for the FCC, as advertised previously. JW5L is meant to usually be combined with JM5M, which was 4.7k (versus 5.5k for JW5L), which was only 1.3k longer than JW/JM5S.

n its always quite a big jump

Depends what you think is a big jump. It is no different to the jump that used to exist between W16A and W18A. There are some events where the jump has been bigger than normal, but usually that's where either S has been too short or L has been too long. S is usually around 60-70% the length of L, which is pretty standard for S courses. S should be equivalent to a Green course, L the equivalent to a Blue course

...esp if i wasnt that fit

For W18+, L is meant to be for those who are fit, and S for those who are unfit, amongst others.