Late starters

[Stodgetta]

Not people who turn up late to start, but people with late start times...

If there is 2 hours between last start time and courses close time, should all people with finish times over 2 hours be disqualified/timed out?

A friend retired on day one, close to the finish, after taking just over 2 hours to get to within 3 controls from the end because it was gone 4pm and courses were officially closed. Looking through the results, there were quite a few people (including over half of M21L) who were out for more than 2 hours on day 1, but because they had earlier starts, they could complete their course and remain competitive on day 2. Is that fair on people with late start times?

[Paulo]

Not people who turn up late to start, but people with late start times...

If there is 2 hours between last start time and courses close time, should all people with finish times over 2 hours be disqualified/timed out?

A friend retired on day one, close to the finish, after taking just over 2 hours to get to within 3 controls from the end because it was gone 4pm and courses were officially closed. Looking through the results, there were quite a few people (including over half of M21L) who were out for more than 2 hours on day 1, but because they had earlier starts, they could complete their course and remain competitive on day 2. Is that fair on people with late start times?

No that's not fair. I think 2 hours is not enough of a gap between last start and course closing though, or it certainly wasn't on Saturday given some of the M21L times - I took just over 2 hours myself on 21L on day 1 and would have been very disappointed to have been timed out.

(Though maybe the problem here was just that the M21L course was too long - almost everyone on that class went round at least 20 minutes quicker on day 2).

[FatBoy]

Also a friend of mine so maybe I'm biased but this has nearly happened to me several times so I feel strongly about it. It would've affected me on Saturday if I'd run as well as I would've been last off. 2 hours is NOT too long to be out on a 21L course so there should be longer available between last start and courses close. I think 3 hours should be allowed - this would've only excluded two people all weekend on 21L.

[Guest]

I was due to start at 13:59 on day 1 and emailed to ask if my start could be made a little earlier as I wasn't 100% I'd get round W21L in 2 hours. It was changed to an hour earlier and I was only out 105 mins so would have been ok. I definitely think this an issue for some of the longer courses, I think if it had happened to me I would have probably still have finished the course though - at least then I would have been happy that I'd done it.

[mharky]

Thats a good point that has never really been raised, at the o-ringen everyone is given 2:30hrs. But in Britai the first starter cold take 5hrs, and the last just 2hrs. Thats unfair.

I think giving people 2:30hrs is ok

[Guest]

As a slow competitor, the distraction of knowing that I'm up against an impending course closure is normally enough to exascerbate the situation further. I find it impossible to stay 100% focussed when I'm worried about timing out.

[CHS]

We once took my Uncle to the French Five Day when he had not been orienteering long. Rather rashly he entered H35L and was very chuffed at improving his time to 2.30 by the last day, having taken about 3.30 on the first day. I think that if people are new to the sport they should be allowed longer to complete their course at major events. Perhaps they should request earlier (mid?) starts.

[Tatty]

This has certainly arisen in the passed. It is unfair on those who run the longest courses. Often this is couples who have to run split starts due to child care arrangements. I know in the past I've had to give up runs to be back by course closing time. Took great delight at one BOK Tror, many moons ago, in giving my eldest, in a baby carrier to the finish oficials as my husband wasn't back and they only had a 2 hour start block!

[Blanka]

I think it's definitely a good idea to give everyone the same limit. 150 minutes or 180 minutes seems reasonable, depending on terrain.

This is how it worked at all the European (non-British) events I've been to. Czech 5 usually has the same limit for all days (tends to be 150 minutes, sometimes 180), at the Slovakian 4 days, we had 120 minutes for the short race, 150 minutes for the middle races and 180 minutes for the long race, which was a WRE for the elites, all of which gave a sufficient margin to everyone, whether they started late or not.

Giving early starters the same limit also means that you won't have beginners out there thinking that they should definitely finish, still out after 4 hours and maybe starting to get hypothermic! So it's probably safer...

[graeme]

I think two hours after last start is enough, with a long start list the organisers need to have a reasonable time to close things down. Remember that what this means is practice is that the early controls start to get taken in, not that you're DQ'ed. I would be extremely surprised if your friend had been DQ'ed for finishing after 4p.m.

I agree with FatBoy that 2 hours is not too long to be out on a long course, but you should either have got half way by then, or had the courtesy to ask for an early start time and explain why you need it. The organisers should be able to start taking the early flags in (which means, technically, the course must be declared closed).

Perhaps a bit of clarity about what "courses close" really means is required.

Graeme

[fish]

But the courses close time should be the time the organisers want everyone back from the forest partly from a safety point of view- saying it's when controls will begin to be collected in makes it too ambiguous ... do people stay out in the forest, and then end up searching for a control that hasalready been brought in, and how long after this initial control collecting time do people have.

2hrs seems a bit tight for a big event with a lot of people long courses - but 2.30 would be reasonable.

[180 minute man]

Speaking from personal experience. 3 hours from last start to course closing seems like a really good idea!

[Guest]

Remember that what this means is practice is that the early controls start to get taken in, not that you're DQ'ed. I would be extremely surprised if your friend had been DQ'ed for finishing after 4p.m.
Graeme

Not one hundred percent sure but i think 4pm course closing means that the sport ident boxes switch themselves off at 4pm. In which case he would definetly of been "DQ'ed"

[Patrick]

Not one hundred percent sure but i think 4pm course closing means that the sport ident boxes switch themselves off at 4pm. In which case he would definetly of been "DQ'ed"

I hope that's not the case. Top tip when programming SI boxes - always set the switch off time to be well after course closing (an hour is usual). If you don't do this and the starts get delayed for some reason then you've got serious problems.

Patrick

[FatBoy]

Speaking from many control collecting experiences they normally go off all at once in your rucksack meaning most people do program them for after courses close.

It's certainly my understanding that courses close means if you're not back we're going to start looking for you. Therefore if you're not disqd for finishing after that then it's only at the discretion of the organisers.