orienteering in 20's and 30's
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Too cold, too tired, too early, long drive and only done one training day in 7 months due to broken boat then broken me. Enough excuses?
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FatBoy - addict
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Too cold, too tired, too early, long drive and only done one training day in 7 months
May be this is the answer to the original thread. We late 20 early 30s people are just too busy !
Stodge's Blog http://www.stodgell.co.uk
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stodge - blue
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FatBoy wrote:You hit 21 and all change. So you're struggling for the first time in your life with actually having no time because of work, you're getting your first body niggles that won't go away, you're all of a sudden in a big age group and you have to start looking from the bottom of the results rather than the top to find your name
QED?
It is a lot to do with it for sure - I'm not even working at the moment and I have NO time!
Most of my friends who have tried it really enjoy it and do come along very occasionally but when I say "oh there's a race on Merthyr Mawr this weekend" there's interest but normally windsurfing or wedding arrangements seems to take precedence. It's going to be like finding needles in haystacks looking for 20/30 somethings who will enjoy orienteering and have time to do it - but if we don't do things to advertise ourselves and make them welcome when they're here then we wont find any!
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FatBoy - addict
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stodge wrote: We late 20 early 30s people are just too busy !
But if we look at these problems a different way - and concentrate on smaller scale, good quality local events - perhaps we could actually use it to our advantage in turning orienteering into the sort of pocket adventure you can have between meals without losing the rest of the weekend. surely a better bet than a trip to a horrid gym.
You know, an hour's exercise in pleasant surroundings and a pub lunch (how I look forward to a pub lunch that won't cost an arm and a leg by the time Neville and the girls have eaten their fill)
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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I agree Mrs H - hence not going canoeing Saturday (aside from being too cold) because it was too far away (needed to be up near Halifax by 0830!) and was going to take my entire Sat. A quick trip around a blue course on a Saturday in NGOC land doesn't take too long and is ideal (if I'm in Cardiff!).
It is an important part of recruiting is having follow-up events. "I really enjoyed that - when's the next one?" is something you want to answer within a few weeks, not months. Perhaps easier in midlands/se but perhaps not so in mid Wales, East Anglia etc
It is an important part of recruiting is having follow-up events. "I really enjoyed that - when's the next one?" is something you want to answer within a few weeks, not months. Perhaps easier in midlands/se but perhaps not so in mid Wales, East Anglia etc
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FatBoy - addict
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Mrs H wrote:
But if we look at these problems a different way - and concentrate on smaller scale, good quality local events - perhaps we could actually use it to our advantage in turning orienteering into the sort of pocket adventure you can have between meals without losing the rest of the weekend. surely a better bet than a trip to a horrid gym.
Yes... this is the essence of the way forward... it is where we start. You can get new people to all the other larger events... in the end. But to begin with you need a set of low key, informal events.
We have an event every week, that is low key and quite inofrmal with two/three courses, run by one person each time. If we didn't have these we would long ago have disappeared as a club. Electronic punching has transformed these into exciting experiences, and anyone trying them for the first time is amazed!
There is always the pub afterwards for a get together. In fact I'm sure some are motivated by this alone!!
This model has to be worked on all the time. It is a long term project, but it does provide the replacement members for the inevitable turnover of membership. If you are lucky with your advertising and press reports you will see a gradual increase in numbers!
But if we look at these problems a different way - and concentrate on smaller scale, good quality local events - perhaps we could actually use it to our advantage in turning orienteering into the sort of pocket adventure you can have between meals without losing the rest of the weekend. surely a better bet than a trip to a horrid gym.
Yes... this is the essence of the way forward... it is where we start. You can get new people to all the other larger events... in the end. But to begin with you need a set of low key, informal events.
We have an event every week, that is low key and quite inofrmal with two/three courses, run by one person each time. If we didn't have these we would long ago have disappeared as a club. Electronic punching has transformed these into exciting experiences, and anyone trying them for the first time is amazed!
There is always the pub afterwards for a get together. In fact I'm sure some are motivated by this alone!!
This model has to be worked on all the time. It is a long term project, but it does provide the replacement members for the inevitable turnover of membership. If you are lucky with your advertising and press reports you will see a gradual increase in numbers!
- RJ
"If you want to do this exercise, and I hope you will, I suggest that you ask Alex at BOF HQ for the numbers by Club within each birth year in the range. He can give you data at that level of generality, I theeenk , without falling foul of the Data Protection Act."
I was hoping that the clubs that are attracting more than their share of 20/30's would know who they are and post the reasons. Now you are suggesting I do some work John! OK, I shall contact BOF HQ later. I won't post a list of clubs that are attracting 20/30's, I'll contact the clubs and see if they want to comment.
I agree with previous comments about early start times. It's one of the things that deterred me from returning to orienteering. Maybe I'm lazy, but getting up at 7am on a Sunday morning has never been my strong point. Judging by the number of cars on the road at that time, most non-orienteers agree with me. The DFOK/SAXONS series of local Saturday events has lovely late start times (11am - 1pm). As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a problem getting all the competitors and equipment in before dark, even in December. There might be a problem for bigger events I know.
And I agree with RJ about local events. If I'd known about them maybe I'd have returned to orienteering sooner.
I was hoping that the clubs that are attracting more than their share of 20/30's would know who they are and post the reasons. Now you are suggesting I do some work John! OK, I shall contact BOF HQ later. I won't post a list of clubs that are attracting 20/30's, I'll contact the clubs and see if they want to comment.
I agree with previous comments about early start times. It's one of the things that deterred me from returning to orienteering. Maybe I'm lazy, but getting up at 7am on a Sunday morning has never been my strong point. Judging by the number of cars on the road at that time, most non-orienteers agree with me. The DFOK/SAXONS series of local Saturday events has lovely late start times (11am - 1pm). As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a problem getting all the competitors and equipment in before dark, even in December. There might be a problem for bigger events I know.
And I agree with RJ about local events. If I'd known about them maybe I'd have returned to orienteering sooner.
- SeanC
- god
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Our Saturday series events are really buzzing at the moment with a significant increase in runners including regular sightings of new M and W 21. What we are not sure about is quite why there has been a difference this year. Certainly the regularity with which they are put on means that there is always an event to direct newcomers to and if they enjoy the first one it shouldn't be too long before there is another one in their locality. We are also getting new families and juniors so clearly something is right. It would be interesting to get some feedback from our newcomers as to how they found out about the events and what was good/bad about them.
Something to do once the World Cup is out of the way!
Mind you one of the things that newcomers undoubtedly find disconcerting is that even though they may be fit, they will have to get used to being beaten by 12 year olds and 60 year olds. But that for me is one of the joys of the sport!
SC Southdowns
Something to do once the World Cup is out of the way!
Mind you one of the things that newcomers undoubtedly find disconcerting is that even though they may be fit, they will have to get used to being beaten by 12 year olds and 60 year olds. But that for me is one of the joys of the sport!
SC Southdowns
- Guest
From BOC2005
Starters on M21L - 21
Starters on M70L - 22
Graeme
Starters on M21L - 21
Starters on M70L - 22
Graeme
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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However:
M21E 41
M21S 29
M21V 1
M70S 4
So totals
M21 92
M70 26
I agree not good but you can't take the two long courses on their own.
M21E 41
M21S 29
M21V 1
M70S 4
So totals
M21 92
M70 26
I agree not good but you can't take the two long courses on their own.
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FatBoy - addict
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something that i think is possibly a quite important factor for attracting the 20s and 30s into orienteering is the existance of 20s and 30s in orienteering.
perhaps the reason nobody has really said this is cos it's quite obvious. however, it means that any decline in numbers might not be linear (which it maybe is for all i know). anyway, according to me, this is a much more important factor to bear in mind than stuff like o-kit and finishes in the assembly area or what it'll look like on telly. if all the cool people are doing it, then how can the swarming masses resist?
the best vehicle to promote this coming together of the youth of britain is the orienteering Club. at some point in the past, i used to (but not any more for some reason) try to explain to my non-orienteering friends and colleagues that they should come and run for our club with the goal of counting for the club in various inter-club competitions. relays are just one important example of this kind of competition. this wasn't a complete failure either. it strikes me that with an evangelistic attitude for the sport and an opportunity to be part of the Club Team to aim for, the club ought to be able to attract enough talented 20s and 30s to tick over (or worse, explode into the latest craze taking the country by storm).
of course, if the existing 20s and 30s in orienteering are too ashamed of the image of the sport to try and do this, then by all means, try and change it, but i think that's a secondary problem.
hope this helps...
P.S. concerning relay classes (this might be better in the relay thread, but then while half the people are talking about the usual plans to dumb down open classes, the current topic seems to be about oldsters). people in their 20s and 30s should not be afraid of running 10k courses, and if they feel they need to train in order to do this (which they probably should), then Club training ought to provide further opportunities to meet these target convertees and convince them that they are doing the right thing.
perhaps the reason nobody has really said this is cos it's quite obvious. however, it means that any decline in numbers might not be linear (which it maybe is for all i know). anyway, according to me, this is a much more important factor to bear in mind than stuff like o-kit and finishes in the assembly area or what it'll look like on telly. if all the cool people are doing it, then how can the swarming masses resist?
the best vehicle to promote this coming together of the youth of britain is the orienteering Club. at some point in the past, i used to (but not any more for some reason) try to explain to my non-orienteering friends and colleagues that they should come and run for our club with the goal of counting for the club in various inter-club competitions. relays are just one important example of this kind of competition. this wasn't a complete failure either. it strikes me that with an evangelistic attitude for the sport and an opportunity to be part of the Club Team to aim for, the club ought to be able to attract enough talented 20s and 30s to tick over (or worse, explode into the latest craze taking the country by storm).
of course, if the existing 20s and 30s in orienteering are too ashamed of the image of the sport to try and do this, then by all means, try and change it, but i think that's a secondary problem.
hope this helps...
P.S. concerning relay classes (this might be better in the relay thread, but then while half the people are talking about the usual plans to dumb down open classes, the current topic seems to be about oldsters). people in their 20s and 30s should not be afraid of running 10k courses, and if they feel they need to train in order to do this (which they probably should), then Club training ought to provide further opportunities to meet these target convertees and convince them that they are doing the right thing.
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ic - yellow
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ic wrote:people in their 20s and 30s should not be afraid of running 10k courses, and if they feel they need to train in order to do this (which they probably should)
I am afraid, because I don't have the time to train. I think this more is the issue, not how cool the sport is or isn't. 20-30's (and I'm at the very tail end of that range) simply have far too many other things to do. It's not a case of "shall I go orienteering or adventure racing?" but "shall I go orienteering or cut the grass/lay a patio/decorate the bedroom/tile the shower?"
Maybe...
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PorkyFatBoy - diehard
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"If you want to do this exercise, and I hope you will, I suggest that you ask Alex at BOF HQ for the numbers by Club within each birth year in the range. He can give you data at that level of generality, I theeenk , without falling foul of the Data Protection Act."
Alex at BOF has given me some club membership data and I have analysed it.
Statistics….. groan, zzzzzzzzz, yawn. If statistics make you feel like this, skip to the conclusion. If your in a hurry, or you have attention span problems, skip to the “conclusion of the conclusion”.
Alex gave me a pile of raw data which I used to calculate total BOF membership in 3 age groups – under 20’s, 20-40’s and 40+, for the years 1997 and 2004. This was very boring, but I had a stinking cold so it gave me something to do. Because of the difficulty of extracting the data from the BOF database, he could not provide data for all UK clubs. He has therefore given me membership data for the South East, Yorkshire and Humberside and Scotland only. These regions have the highest percentages of orienteers in the 20-40 age group. Pre-1997 data is difficult to recover.
I’ve ignored university, schools and armed forces clubs. This is BOF membership data, not club membership or participation figures. I’ve not attempted to do any fancy statistical analysis to calculate trends or statistical significance. I’ve just looked at the numbers and made some conclusions. You won’t be able to check my conclusions as I’m not going to post the club data. I fear that the clubs which are experiencing falling membership might not appreciate it (the majority of clubs).
CONCLUSIONS
Reply 2 to this thread
“adventure racing has it sussed and has grown hugely over the past 10 years while orienteering has been going into freefall”
Looking at the totals for 35 clubs in the 3 regions I have data for, the picture looks bad.
1997 Statistics for the 3 regions:
Total membership: 3269
Total under 20: 697 (21.32%)
Total 20-40: 996 (30.47%)
Total 40+: 1463 (44.75%)
2004 Statistics for the 3 regions:
Total membership: 2679
Total under 20: 529(19.75%)
Total 20-40: 597(22.28%)
Total 40+: 1500(55.99%)
Change between 2004 and 1997.
Total membership: -590
Under 20: -168
20-40: -399
40+: 37
There’s been a 40% reduction in the 20-40’s in the last 7 years in the 3 regions, and a 18% reduction in total numbers in that time. These are the regions with the most 20-40’s! Orienteering would appear to be “in freefall” in this age group at least. But if you look at the club data in more detail the picture is more complex, and gives us some hope.
25 clubs out of a total of 35 clubs experienced a significant decline in numbers. Of these, some declined in the average pattern above, some just in the 20-40’s, some across all age categories.
6 clubs had stable membership numbers. Of these, 4 had a reduced number of 20-40’s and increased number of juniors and those aged 40+, 2 were stable across all age groups.
4 clubs had significantly increased membership. Their growth was concentrated in junior and 40+ age groups. One large club increased BOF membership by 25%.
No club has managed to increase numbers of 20-40’s, though 5 clubs managed to keep numbers at 1997 levels.
The successful clubs re: BOF membership are in different regions and are of all different sizes.
Clubs based in large cities generally have the highest percentage of 20-40’s (30%-50%, compared with about 15% for a typical suburban/rural club).
This is a mickey mouse piece of research! Has there been a proper study (perhaps by one of the regions)? Brooner – is your dissertation finished yet? Could a university or BOF could apply for a research grant?
CONCLUSION OF THE CONCLUSION
There’s been a grim 40% drop in the number of orienteers aged 20-40 between 1997 and 2004 in the 3 regions I’ve got numbers for. However quite a few clubs have kept their numbers of 20-40’s at 1997 levels. I shall contact people from these clubs and ask them how they did it. If your club is not in the South East, Yorkshire/Humberside or Scotland, and you have not had a drop in BOF membership between 1997 and 2004, then why?
Clubs seem to find it much easier to expand in the juniors and especially in the 40+ age groups, so the older age structure is here to stay.
Alex at BOF has given me some club membership data and I have analysed it.
Statistics….. groan, zzzzzzzzz, yawn. If statistics make you feel like this, skip to the conclusion. If your in a hurry, or you have attention span problems, skip to the “conclusion of the conclusion”.
Alex gave me a pile of raw data which I used to calculate total BOF membership in 3 age groups – under 20’s, 20-40’s and 40+, for the years 1997 and 2004. This was very boring, but I had a stinking cold so it gave me something to do. Because of the difficulty of extracting the data from the BOF database, he could not provide data for all UK clubs. He has therefore given me membership data for the South East, Yorkshire and Humberside and Scotland only. These regions have the highest percentages of orienteers in the 20-40 age group. Pre-1997 data is difficult to recover.
I’ve ignored university, schools and armed forces clubs. This is BOF membership data, not club membership or participation figures. I’ve not attempted to do any fancy statistical analysis to calculate trends or statistical significance. I’ve just looked at the numbers and made some conclusions. You won’t be able to check my conclusions as I’m not going to post the club data. I fear that the clubs which are experiencing falling membership might not appreciate it (the majority of clubs).
CONCLUSIONS
Reply 2 to this thread
“adventure racing has it sussed and has grown hugely over the past 10 years while orienteering has been going into freefall”
Looking at the totals for 35 clubs in the 3 regions I have data for, the picture looks bad.
1997 Statistics for the 3 regions:
Total membership: 3269
Total under 20: 697 (21.32%)
Total 20-40: 996 (30.47%)
Total 40+: 1463 (44.75%)
2004 Statistics for the 3 regions:
Total membership: 2679
Total under 20: 529(19.75%)
Total 20-40: 597(22.28%)
Total 40+: 1500(55.99%)
Change between 2004 and 1997.
Total membership: -590
Under 20: -168
20-40: -399
40+: 37
There’s been a 40% reduction in the 20-40’s in the last 7 years in the 3 regions, and a 18% reduction in total numbers in that time. These are the regions with the most 20-40’s! Orienteering would appear to be “in freefall” in this age group at least. But if you look at the club data in more detail the picture is more complex, and gives us some hope.
25 clubs out of a total of 35 clubs experienced a significant decline in numbers. Of these, some declined in the average pattern above, some just in the 20-40’s, some across all age categories.
6 clubs had stable membership numbers. Of these, 4 had a reduced number of 20-40’s and increased number of juniors and those aged 40+, 2 were stable across all age groups.
4 clubs had significantly increased membership. Their growth was concentrated in junior and 40+ age groups. One large club increased BOF membership by 25%.
No club has managed to increase numbers of 20-40’s, though 5 clubs managed to keep numbers at 1997 levels.
The successful clubs re: BOF membership are in different regions and are of all different sizes.
Clubs based in large cities generally have the highest percentage of 20-40’s (30%-50%, compared with about 15% for a typical suburban/rural club).
This is a mickey mouse piece of research! Has there been a proper study (perhaps by one of the regions)? Brooner – is your dissertation finished yet? Could a university or BOF could apply for a research grant?
CONCLUSION OF THE CONCLUSION
There’s been a grim 40% drop in the number of orienteers aged 20-40 between 1997 and 2004 in the 3 regions I’ve got numbers for. However quite a few clubs have kept their numbers of 20-40’s at 1997 levels. I shall contact people from these clubs and ask them how they did it. If your club is not in the South East, Yorkshire/Humberside or Scotland, and you have not had a drop in BOF membership between 1997 and 2004, then why?
Clubs seem to find it much easier to expand in the juniors and especially in the 40+ age groups, so the older age structure is here to stay.
- SeanC
- god
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- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:46 pm
- Location: Kent
[quote]I'll contact the clubs and see if they want to comment. [/quote]
I haven't had an official reply from the 5 clubs in the SE/YH and SCOT regions that have been successful at recruiting/retaining orienteers aged 20-40. I guess it's a difficult question for a club to provide an official response on.
If I get some answers I'll post it on this thread. In case your wondering the 5 clubs are FVO, INT, MOR, AIRE and SN.
I haven't had an official reply from the 5 clubs in the SE/YH and SCOT regions that have been successful at recruiting/retaining orienteers aged 20-40. I guess it's a difficult question for a club to provide an official response on.
If I get some answers I'll post it on this thread. In case your wondering the 5 clubs are FVO, INT, MOR, AIRE and SN.
- SeanC
- god
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- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:46 pm
- Location: Kent
As an M21 in Interlopers I'll add a few of my own comments.
I was very surprised to see us in your list! Since I joined while at university (almost 10 years ago) the age profile has definitely aged, and this year we didn't have any women's open relay teams or a Harvester team.
A large number of our members have joined from EUOC after leaving university. (In fact the club was founded because a group of students didn't want to join ESOC when they graduated!). Elite and young orienteers moving to Edinburgh have thus joined INT rather than ESOC. I would guess that if you combined the membership of INT and ESOC then you would end up quite close to the BOF average.
I guess MOR appear on your list due to the RAF bases at Kinloss and Lossiemouth.
I was very surprised to see us in your list! Since I joined while at university (almost 10 years ago) the age profile has definitely aged, and this year we didn't have any women's open relay teams or a Harvester team.
A large number of our members have joined from EUOC after leaving university. (In fact the club was founded because a group of students didn't want to join ESOC when they graduated!). Elite and young orienteers moving to Edinburgh have thus joined INT rather than ESOC. I would guess that if you combined the membership of INT and ESOC then you would end up quite close to the BOF average.
I guess MOR appear on your list due to the RAF bases at Kinloss and Lossiemouth.
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Godders - blue
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