At least one of the elite at today's UK Cup race appears to have found the 'solution' to the problem. They were seen pulling the control out of the ground and carrying it with them for the few seconds it took to punch properly, before dropping the control to the ground.
Solves the problem, but is it ethical? Or within the rules?
Electronic punching disqualifications
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Perhaps I should concrete the stakes into the ground next time I plan. It must be easier than trying to push bendy aluminium into chalk rubble.
The Deaf Old Gorilla
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Deaf Old Gorilla - off string
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Anonymous wrote:At least one of the elite at today's UK Cup race appears to have found the 'solution' to the problem. They were seen pulling the control out of the ground and carrying it with them for the few seconds it took to punch properly, before dropping the control to the ground.
Solves the problem, but is it ethical? Or within the rules?
Names should be named if this is an accurate statement & that individual should be dq'd if it was done on purpose. No excuse.
- gross2006
Something similar happened at our CSC match.
I came into a control with some bloke steaming past me. He slipped, hit the stake, broke the base plate and the box disappeared into the mud. He dug it out, punched, threw the box towards me and as he disappeared, never to be seen again, shouted back "you sort it out..." .
I wasn't having the best run of my life by any means, so I spent a few seconds trying to find a way to fix the box back onto the plate, and ended up leaving it on the floor next to the stake and watched as the next runner came in to make sure it was obvious.
I came into a control with some bloke steaming past me. He slipped, hit the stake, broke the base plate and the box disappeared into the mud. He dug it out, punched, threw the box towards me and as he disappeared, never to be seen again, shouted back "you sort it out..." .
I wasn't having the best run of my life by any means, so I spent a few seconds trying to find a way to fix the box back onto the plate, and ended up leaving it on the floor next to the stake and watched as the next runner came in to make sure it was obvious.
Make the most of life - you're a long time dead.
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Stodgetta - brown
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Is this really the way the sport should be going. Punch as fast as you can with no thought for the equipment itself. Emit are progressing with the 'no punch proximity' system where you need only pass within a metre or so of the control for it to register.
It is rather sad if that is the way things are going. Is the half a second per control really that important?.... well I suppose it is!!!! Perhaps SPORTident are working on a similar 'proximity' system at the moment.
Just how important a part of the sport is the physical punching process? It would be better to be able to run past the controls, and thus not giving their position away!
Perhaps we will all be wearing GPS receivers shortly which will record our actual route around the course. Downloading at the finish will show whether we have done the correct course or not!
It is rather sad if that is the way things are going. Is the half a second per control really that important?.... well I suppose it is!!!! Perhaps SPORTident are working on a similar 'proximity' system at the moment.
Just how important a part of the sport is the physical punching process? It would be better to be able to run past the controls, and thus not giving their position away!
Perhaps we will all be wearing GPS receivers shortly which will record our actual route around the course. Downloading at the finish will show whether we have done the correct course or not!
- RJ
Don't fancy the proximity thing.
Theres something definate about punching at a control and saying "I've been there".
Where would a proximity thing stop in terms of appeals? "I was near the control, but it didn't register - can you double check the control box?", or, knowing you are within the circle, unable to spot the control quickly, but know you are close enough for it to have counted without finding the control.
Control descriptions like "Knoll N side" would just change to "Knoll".
The precision part of the sport would disappear, and you would end up with just as many unhappy campers complaining about how the system works as we have now.
The systems we have are good enough, and getting better. Everybody has their preferred system, but that is life. Electronic punching allows quick and reliable results as long as everybody knows what the rules are so that everyone is starting on a level playing field.
Theres something definate about punching at a control and saying "I've been there".
Where would a proximity thing stop in terms of appeals? "I was near the control, but it didn't register - can you double check the control box?", or, knowing you are within the circle, unable to spot the control quickly, but know you are close enough for it to have counted without finding the control.
Control descriptions like "Knoll N side" would just change to "Knoll".
The precision part of the sport would disappear, and you would end up with just as many unhappy campers complaining about how the system works as we have now.
The systems we have are good enough, and getting better. Everybody has their preferred system, but that is life. Electronic punching allows quick and reliable results as long as everybody knows what the rules are so that everyone is starting on a level playing field.
Make the most of life - you're a long time dead.
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Stodgetta - brown
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proximity punching would only work (and I guess does only work) if there was some sort of visual feedback on the card, as with the v3 EMIT cards i.e. those with LCD displays. Then the competitor knows that they have punched.
There are definite advantages, say for MTBO example where they've already been used, and Sprint-O where the fractions of a second spent trying to get the e-card to register do matter - IIRC proximity EMIT is being used at the British Sprint Champs this year.
With regard to the range issue - for foot-O it could be limited to 1m say, and only line-of-sight, so the flag pretty much has to be within visual range and you still have to have visited the feature to register at the control. and it would still save having to jump into the small depression/pit/gully to be able to punch...
There are definite advantages, say for MTBO example where they've already been used, and Sprint-O where the fractions of a second spent trying to get the e-card to register do matter - IIRC proximity EMIT is being used at the British Sprint Champs this year.
With regard to the range issue - for foot-O it could be limited to 1m say, and only line-of-sight, so the flag pretty much has to be within visual range and you still have to have visited the feature to register at the control. and it would still save having to jump into the small depression/pit/gully to be able to punch...
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distracted - addict
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RJ wrote:Perhaps we will all be wearing GPS receivers shortly which will record our actual route around the course. Downloading at the finish will show whether we have done the correct course or not!
Don't think GPS would have the required accuracy, and the signal strength under the tree canopy is not great. But if you did use GPS, would you then need flags? - that would add a little to the navigational side of things.
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distracted - addict
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RJ wrote:Just how important a part of the sport is the physical punching process? It would be better to be able to run past the controls, and thus not giving their position away!
As distracted states, feedback to the competitor would be needed.
The technology is there. For example the runover stuff that is used at London Marathon. Then at each control site you could have a metre or so strip (clearly marked!) that you would have to run over to 'punch'.
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Simon - brown
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the technology isn't really 'there', at present all 'non-punching' control sites are too bulky and power heavy to be feasible for putting out in the forest by the hundred.
their use is however possible in ski-o, mtb-o etc where they are all placed on tracks and can be reached by motorised means.
their use is however possible in ski-o, mtb-o etc where they are all placed on tracks and can be reached by motorised means.
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rocky - [nope] cartel
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I ran a sprint race in Norway a couple of years ago which used the emit 'no punching' system. All you had to do was run between a sort of gate thing. It was actually quite surprising how stopping to punch slows you down. With this system you just keep on going and there is no need to stop and then accelerate again etc. I was also pretty suprised at how much of a rest punching gives you!
it's all fun
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m - nope young team
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distracted wrote:Don't think GPS would have the required accuracy, and the signal strength under the tree canopy is not great. But if you did use GPS, would you then need flags? - that would add a little to the navigational side of things.
The newest GPS systems are accurate to within mm's, and a tree canopy is no problem, they can go through buildings.
That would ofcourse cost millions.
But there is the availablitity for very accurate GPS, for in-race tracking, like at spring cup relay next weekend.
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mharky - team nopesport
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I know I run a lot slower than most (all) elites but I can get even an SI 5 to register (beep) while still moving. Sometimes it involves a rather tortured route around a stake to keep the flow going but I don't understand why somebody would feel pulling a stake out the ground would be faster? I agree though anybody caught doing this should be named and shamed. If everyone did it the stake would be half way to the next control by the end!
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FatBoy - addict
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Anyone actually know the time gained by using the new GB Squad SI cards over the older 6 digit number ones.
My views are that you should have to register something on whatever card you're carrying but why disqualify people for not clearing e-cards (i'm sure someone mentioned it earlier) - so long as you still get something on your e-card or puch the map for every control it shouldn't matter.
There was a discussion going about proximity puncjing earlier - you should actualy have to touch the control at the very least.
I have problems with those events (esp. local ones) that don't put backup pin-punches out for SI
My views are that you should have to register something on whatever card you're carrying but why disqualify people for not clearing e-cards (i'm sure someone mentioned it earlier) - so long as you still get something on your e-card or puch the map for every control it shouldn't matter.
There was a discussion going about proximity puncjing earlier - you should actualy have to touch the control at the very least.
I have problems with those events (esp. local ones) that don't put backup pin-punches out for SI
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