Are orienteers, in these days when society expects everything on demand, asking too much of organising clubs by entering events late and expecting that a map of their chosen course will still be available?
When I was volunteered to take the entries for our Bovington Regional event, I was told to expect to get 50% of entries in the week after the closing date. What I wasn’t prepared for was the number of orienteers leaving things much later than that.
Numbers for events in the SW tend to be quite low anyway and faced with a huge access fee from the MOD of £750 for the use of the area (last time we used Bovington it cost us £250 for a 2 day event) we needed everyone we could get. To complicate matters, although the closing date for entries was 26th Jan, the BOF website erroneously gave 31st Jan, which was cutting things fine.
So our total entry numbers were
26 Jan 170
31 Jan 223
3rd Feb 269
12th Feb 312
On the day 340 + 40 colour coded
In other words, only 50% of competitors entered by the official closing date, but in leaving things so late, the others made life tricky for the organisers, particularly in predicting the print run. Digital printing of maps may well be inexpensive, but spare overprinted maps of areas with restricted access are mainly useless after the event, and with such a huge land use fee, we didn’t want to have hundred of pounds worth of unused maps remaining afterwards. With 14 courses possible, even a small overrun all round could leave lots of unused maps at the end of an event
Fortunately our printer lives close to one of the planners and we were able to delay printing the maps until the Monday before the competition. Even then, we had 25% of entries on course 3 (M40L,M50L,M21S,W21L,JM5M), in the week before the event.
I know this is not a problem unique to WIM. What is the experience of other clubs?
Late Late entries for Regional events
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
33 posts
• Page 1 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
I'd say your experience is fairly typical.
Last year Interlopers' badge event on 25 April with a closing date 2 weeks earlier on 10 April:
8 April 140
10 April 194
15 April 275
23 April 326
on the day 392
We printed lots of spare maps - with entry on the day at £8 and maps costing either 50p or £1 to laser print you can afford to print a lot of spare maps before losing out financially compared to refusing to accept late entries.
Where the late entry fee is trivial there's no incentive to enter early, especially for people not sure if they'll be able to make it due to injury/work etc.
In Scandinavia it seems to be quite common for late entry to cost an extra 50% and for late entrants to get the unpopular first start times.
I'd be in favour of that sort of system here. The planners, organisers, controllers and other helpers give up a massive amount of free time. The least competitors can do is to be organised enough to enter in time.
Last year Interlopers' badge event on 25 April with a closing date 2 weeks earlier on 10 April:
8 April 140
10 April 194
15 April 275
23 April 326
on the day 392
We printed lots of spare maps - with entry on the day at £8 and maps costing either 50p or £1 to laser print you can afford to print a lot of spare maps before losing out financially compared to refusing to accept late entries.
Where the late entry fee is trivial there's no incentive to enter early, especially for people not sure if they'll be able to make it due to injury/work etc.
In Scandinavia it seems to be quite common for late entry to cost an extra 50% and for late entrants to get the unpopular first start times.
I'd be in favour of that sort of system here. The planners, organisers, controllers and other helpers give up a massive amount of free time. The least competitors can do is to be organised enough to enter in time.
-
Godders - blue
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:37 pm
- Location: Swanston
This is one subject which will never trully be solved, no matter what method is employed. As Godders says, the norm (at least here in Sweden) is for a 50% extra charge to be made for late entries (efteranmälan) and a start time before the ordinary starts. These are usually taken up to the day before an event (depending on size of event, of course). The main difference, however, is how the payment is made. For ordinary entry fees, each club receives an invoice after the event for all the runners from that club who have taken part. Different clubs here have different arrangements dependent on how much cash they have but my club pays all my "normal" entry fees. If I put in a late entry, the club pays the whole lot as per the invoice but then invoices me for the 50% extra, thereby meaning the event organiser gets his cash but leaves the responsibility for reclaiming the excess to the runner's club. The set-up for non-affiliated and foreign runners is that they pay at the event. No cash, no run. No "entries on the day" are taken but at least a couple of open courses are available to cover for this.
This year has seen the end of the centrally fixed fee system - it used to be that the federation decided a common entry fee for all events of the same standard (80kr was the usual fee for your bog-standard Sunday run). However, this year organisers can almost charge what they want which is causing a good deal of debate in some places due to the inclusion of parking fees, fees for "better quality maps" etc (How many excuses for charging extra can you find?).
I've always thought that a good way to sort it out would be to charge a late fee but let the late entrants draw up their own maps, in competition time, as was the way (still is?) with colour coded events in the UK. First start times as well. Blank maps can at least be used again. This imposes a slight time penalty which some people will agree with and some not but people are always going to try to enter on the day whether we like it or not and they can mean a lot to the economic result.
This year has seen the end of the centrally fixed fee system - it used to be that the federation decided a common entry fee for all events of the same standard (80kr was the usual fee for your bog-standard Sunday run). However, this year organisers can almost charge what they want which is causing a good deal of debate in some places due to the inclusion of parking fees, fees for "better quality maps" etc (How many excuses for charging extra can you find?).
I've always thought that a good way to sort it out would be to charge a late fee but let the late entrants draw up their own maps, in competition time, as was the way (still is?) with colour coded events in the UK. First start times as well. Blank maps can at least be used again. This imposes a slight time penalty which some people will agree with and some not but people are always going to try to enter on the day whether we like it or not and they can mean a lot to the economic result.
- Domhnull Mor
- light green
- Posts: 286
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 11:16 am
- Location: Way, Way Up North
With my competitor head on (as opposed to event helper) sometimes late entries are inevitable. If I've got to work a weekend, or some other commitment, and then last minute it gets cancelled then I'd like to get out and do a run.
Charging 50% extra is fine by me as it's cheaper than paying the whole entry just on the off chance I'll be free. Making me start early and/or copying the course down when others don't have to may just make me not turn up at all.
With modern technology i.e. laser printed maps and e-punching there shouldn't be much overhead in processing late entries. I would say charge (and insist on) enough of an excess to make people who've got no reason to enter late make it on time.
One question though: We often talk about how to get new people into the sport. Is penalising late entries therefore a good idea?
Charging 50% extra is fine by me as it's cheaper than paying the whole entry just on the off chance I'll be free. Making me start early and/or copying the course down when others don't have to may just make me not turn up at all.
With modern technology i.e. laser printed maps and e-punching there shouldn't be much overhead in processing late entries. I would say charge (and insist on) enough of an excess to make people who've got no reason to enter late make it on time.
One question though: We often talk about how to get new people into the sport. Is penalising late entries therefore a good idea?
-
FatBoy - addict
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:46 pm
If we accept that:
- you can't have all EOD (too high financial risk for organising club)
- you can't have all pre-entry (not very competitor-friendly attitude)
then the debate is about what proportions of each to expect. I'm guessing that these days, for whatever reason, more people are expecting to be able to get EOD, and accept that they'll pay more for that facility.
At Bradfield Moor last weekend SYO had 347 pre-entries (up to about a week before the event). 507 runners were at the event, so therefore about 190 EODs, allowing for about 30 pre-entries that didn't actually turn up. We charged £7.50 pre-entry, and £9 for EOD, only a 20% premium.
For the Regional event at Blacka in December we're going to have a cheaper pre-entry rate, but a 35% premium for EOD. We're also going to pre-print far more maps, to ensure that EODs can get a run on their preferred course, without using master maps, as long as start times are available.
- you can't have all EOD (too high financial risk for organising club)
- you can't have all pre-entry (not very competitor-friendly attitude)
then the debate is about what proportions of each to expect. I'm guessing that these days, for whatever reason, more people are expecting to be able to get EOD, and accept that they'll pay more for that facility.
At Bradfield Moor last weekend SYO had 347 pre-entries (up to about a week before the event). 507 runners were at the event, so therefore about 190 EODs, allowing for about 30 pre-entries that didn't actually turn up. We charged £7.50 pre-entry, and £9 for EOD, only a 20% premium.
For the Regional event at Blacka in December we're going to have a cheaper pre-entry rate, but a 35% premium for EOD. We're also going to pre-print far more maps, to ensure that EODs can get a run on their preferred course, without using master maps, as long as start times are available.
-
Spookster - god
- Posts: 2267
- Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:49 pm
- Location: Sheffield
There are other aspects to this.
1) Orienteers who phone up at last minute and expect a run on course of their choice, and are exceptionally rude if this is not possible.
2) Orienteers who phone up at the last minute and book a run then fail to turn up on the day and don't pay. This means the map can't be sold on and isn't paid for.
We have now adopted the policy that no run is allocated until the money is received, so late phone callers now don't reserve an entry they have to turn up and pay, but they are given an idea of how many EOD maps there are on the course. With internet entry of course money can be obtained.
1) Orienteers who phone up at last minute and expect a run on course of their choice, and are exceptionally rude if this is not possible.
2) Orienteers who phone up at the last minute and book a run then fail to turn up on the day and don't pay. This means the map can't be sold on and isn't paid for.
We have now adopted the policy that no run is allocated until the money is received, so late phone callers now don't reserve an entry they have to turn up and pay, but they are given an idea of how many EOD maps there are on the course. With internet entry of course money can be obtained.
Diets and fitness are no good if you can't read the map.
-
HOCOLITE - addict
- Posts: 1274
- Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:42 pm
- Location: Down the Ag suppliers
I have become more aware recently that there are a lot more very late entries. Clubs probably set closing dates 2 weeks or so beforehand as they expect a few more (late) entries in the following week. After this it's a bit of a lottery for the competitor, as some found out at Bradfield Moor, if you're going to try and rely on getting an EOD.
I've seen a couple of things done recently to partially resolve this problem. For the Concorde Chase, BKO put a list up of how many maps were remaining on each course if you wanted a late entry/to enter on the day. One of the courses only had about 3 maps left, so if you turned up wanting to run that course then you knew you were risking it. So in a way they were encouraging entry beforehand so you knew you were guaranteed a map.
For their upcoming regional event, BADO have postal and online entry systems. Postal entries are fine up 'til the closing date (which is 2 weeks before), after which you have to use the online system. Entry can be made until midnight the Friday before, subject to maps being available, which again should reduce the EOD and the problems associated with it.
You're never going to stop EODs completely, but I think there are ways of reducing it. Another option which more and more clubs are using is to have a colour laser printer on site and print more maps on demand - have seen this at some district events recently.
I've seen a couple of things done recently to partially resolve this problem. For the Concorde Chase, BKO put a list up of how many maps were remaining on each course if you wanted a late entry/to enter on the day. One of the courses only had about 3 maps left, so if you turned up wanting to run that course then you knew you were risking it. So in a way they were encouraging entry beforehand so you knew you were guaranteed a map.
For their upcoming regional event, BADO have postal and online entry systems. Postal entries are fine up 'til the closing date (which is 2 weeks before), after which you have to use the online system. Entry can be made until midnight the Friday before, subject to maps being available, which again should reduce the EOD and the problems associated with it.
You're never going to stop EODs completely, but I think there are ways of reducing it. Another option which more and more clubs are using is to have a colour laser printer on site and print more maps on demand - have seen this at some district events recently.
-
distracted - addict
- Posts: 1194
- Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:15 am
Having done the entries for several National,BOC and JK's late entries are a problem. As one person remarked, remember the entries secreatary is doing the job as a volunteer. Some people ring up very late, ie the night before and become abusive when told the maps have run out. Unfortunately my club can't afford a colour laser printer to have on site to print off extra maps. We are lucky in having BML printers locally who will print very near the event date for us. This doesn't solve the problem on the day. At our recent District event we ran out of maps on Brown and Light Green. Numbers were worked out on all previous District events in the last year and the last event on the same piece of land and we still got in wrong!! Any ideas gratefully recieved.
NB extra competitiors were able to run on these courses but had to mark up a map in race time. Unfortunately the last to run were club members who'd already been helping for 2 or 3 hours!!
NB extra competitiors were able to run on these courses but had to mark up a map in race time. Unfortunately the last to run were club members who'd already been helping for 2 or 3 hours!!
- Tatty
- guru
- Posts: 1626
- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:21 pm
We are all working in the past on this problem!..... Printing maps beforehand to meet expected EOD numbers. It is all a guessing game and impossible to get right.
We really have to move forward. We have done so with electronic punching and offer a superb experience. Now we must tackle the map printing problem. A laser printer can be had for about £400 and will print six maps a minute.
We have printed on the day at Regional and District events to great effect. It can be done and is not that expensive. Our printer has paid for itself three times over! The job of the person selling maps on the day is so much more pleasant. Everyone is happy!
We must move away from trying to sort out a problem that really does not need to be there...
We really have to move forward. We have done so with electronic punching and offer a superb experience. Now we must tackle the map printing problem. A laser printer can be had for about £400 and will print six maps a minute.
We have printed on the day at Regional and District events to great effect. It can be done and is not that expensive. Our printer has paid for itself three times over! The job of the person selling maps on the day is so much more pleasant. Everyone is happy!
We must move away from trying to sort out a problem that really does not need to be there...
- RJ
I spent a fortune in entry fees for events I dont attend.. Something always turned up - usually work or injuries. And then as someone who has always hovered between long and short courses, I havent the foggiest which course will be right for me on the day. Very different for us recreationals.
Last year I missed Hurricane Simonside, because the Police had recovered some stolen goods of mine and needed the paperwork for their case.... Things happen....
Missed an WMOA event last year when I unexpectedly had to spend a weekend (family, house sale reasons) in the nearby town. No colour codeds beyond orange, and no EOD. What a waste... but quite freakish and it will probably never happen to me again.
Why not a longer colour coded course or two - broaden the appeal to those who cannot afford to gamble on entries.
PS when I do preenter I try to do so on time.... And usually do.
Last year I missed Hurricane Simonside, because the Police had recovered some stolen goods of mine and needed the paperwork for their case.... Things happen....
Missed an WMOA event last year when I unexpectedly had to spend a weekend (family, house sale reasons) in the nearby town. No colour codeds beyond orange, and no EOD. What a waste... but quite freakish and it will probably never happen to me again.
Why not a longer colour coded course or two - broaden the appeal to those who cannot afford to gamble on entries.
PS when I do preenter I try to do so on time.... And usually do.
----
Excuse me, can you tell me where I am?
Excuse me, can you tell me where I am?
-
ryeland of doom - blue
- Posts: 442
- Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:34 am
- Location: Cockenzie
How about this.
Regional Events - make M21L Black, M40L Brown etc etc.
Print a load of colour coded maps -
Charge full regional rate + a £2 surcharge for the senior colour coded EOD.
Keep Junior fees nice and low.
After all - the experience is the same.
Same Map
same Toilets
Car Park etc etc etc etc etc
I know WCH are a big club but having your own laser means printing 5 days before the event ( to allow for bagging), and we take entries up to the night before (print a few more if needed).
No EOD at all on badge courses on the day , but we do colour coded...
If anybody is abusive on the phone, ban them from your events - simple
Regional Events - make M21L Black, M40L Brown etc etc.
Print a load of colour coded maps -
Charge full regional rate + a £2 surcharge for the senior colour coded EOD.
Keep Junior fees nice and low.
After all - the experience is the same.
Same Map
same Toilets
Car Park etc etc etc etc etc
I know WCH are a big club but having your own laser means printing 5 days before the event ( to allow for bagging), and we take entries up to the night before (print a few more if needed).
No EOD at all on badge courses on the day , but we do colour coded...
If anybody is abusive on the phone, ban them from your events - simple
-
stodge - blue
- Posts: 411
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 12:02 pm
- Location: Milford
"No EOD at all on badge courses on the day , but we do colour coded... "
Best of both worlds.. Wish more would do the same.
High standard badge event for the committed, and a back up for locals, drop ins , folk with awkward lives and the disorganised. Too often not entering a badge event means you lose the weekend as clubs understandably dont run events against them. They sterilise the fixtures list. I suppose you risk llosing income as the "gamblers" stop entering the badge event, but a lot of folk who doubt they will make it on the day probably dont enter anyway. I bet there is a net gain with CC courses.
My current circumstanses mean I have no difficulty , other than never knowing what course to run with preentries, but in my last job, it was very difficult. And there were so many to choose from. Only get about 8 a year now.
Many thanks to all the clubs that offered EOD over the years - I really appreciate it.
As for the rude gits - yes, ban them!
Best of both worlds.. Wish more would do the same.
High standard badge event for the committed, and a back up for locals, drop ins , folk with awkward lives and the disorganised. Too often not entering a badge event means you lose the weekend as clubs understandably dont run events against them. They sterilise the fixtures list. I suppose you risk llosing income as the "gamblers" stop entering the badge event, but a lot of folk who doubt they will make it on the day probably dont enter anyway. I bet there is a net gain with CC courses.
My current circumstanses mean I have no difficulty , other than never knowing what course to run with preentries, but in my last job, it was very difficult. And there were so many to choose from. Only get about 8 a year now.
Many thanks to all the clubs that offered EOD over the years - I really appreciate it.
As for the rude gits - yes, ban them!
----
Excuse me, can you tell me where I am?
Excuse me, can you tell me where I am?
-
ryeland of doom - blue
- Posts: 442
- Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:34 am
- Location: Cockenzie
stodge wrote:How about this.
Regional Events - make M21L Black, M40L Brown etc etc.
Print a load of colour coded maps -
Charge full regional rate + a £2 surcharge for the senior colour coded EOD.
Keep Junior fees nice and low.
After all - the experience is the same.
Same Map
same Toilets
Car Park etc etc etc etc etc
Fine by me. Really all you want if you've got a good reason for not entering on time is a run and not being overly victimised for doing so. I have in the past run n/c on M35L because I couldn't get a run on M21L when I was supposed to be working - no worries about that. It's mainly the early start thing I would be opposed to because the likelyhood for me is that I worked all Saturday until late just so I could get Sunday off to go for a run.
As for people being rude - don't tolerate it. Some people need a good bump back down to reality.
-
FatBoy - addict
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:46 pm
ryeland of doom wrote:I have no difficulty , other than never knowing what course to run with preentries,
I have the same problem, approximate course lengths must be known (to nearest 0.4k at least) quite early on. Why can't these be published on the clubs websites, so that I can make a decision whether to attempt a long instead of short course. I've noticed especially on some two day events that the short courses appear very short compared to normal. Quite often I would have attempted the longer course if I had known the length before entering. As a 'recreational' orienteer to enter a long course and then find it is around the 10k mark is too off putting.
-
Klebe - blue
- Posts: 458
- Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:39 am
- Location: In transit
RJ wrote:We are all working in the past on this problem!..... Printing maps beforehand to meet expected EOD numbers. It is all a guessing game and impossible to get right.
We really have to move forward. We have done so with electronic punching and offer a superb experience. Now we must tackle the map printing problem. A laser printer can be had for about £400 and will print six maps a minute.
...
This is fine if you have a power supply on site!!
A laser printer really knocks the standard generator used for SI and running it uposets the SI.
Not all clubs even have the luxury of a generator, so a colour laser printer is expecting a lot.
When we have little bases in the forest with power or are happy to run the odd mile or so on roads to a finish with these facilities it will all be easy
Also you are assuming the map sales team have the expertise and space to print maps to order. It's fine when the printer performs to order but in the field a little damp paper and lasers are worse than stroppy teenagers
Hocolite
- Guest
33 posts
• Page 1 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 202 guests