no it's not its level 5 - M16s run JM5M as their standard badge course.Bored at work wrote: (since a M16 course is level 4) [/i]
YBT
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Mrs H. wrote:no it's not its level 5 - M16s run JM5M as their standard badge course.Bored at work wrote: (since a M16 course is level 4) [/i]
D'oh!
These junior courses confuse me.
So I guess the answer is that said person, if they are not M/W14-, should not have been running the Light Green course.
- Bored at work
YBT Gold standard list
Mrs. H wrote
Heather is on the 2003 list as JW4 so must run Light Green, Dan is also on as JM4, but as M16 could well have gained JM5. To do so he must have 3 qualifying times, and he got 1 at the 0007, where Adam, Dan & Mikey all got M16 championship, but only Adam & Dan got JM5 Gold, see the published badge times!!! Yes it sounds very odd, but JM5 & JW5 give some odd results because of S/M/L courses. Dan also got 1 at BOC, note the Gold time is again less than the M16 Championship time.
I have spent alot of time checking the WCH junior's results, but believe only Adam & Emily have gained JM/W5 golds in the last year, and Em can still run LG as W14. Happy trawling through the results, we must get an easier way, please!!! Keep smiling.
I agree Mark - that's why Dan also ran green and Heather light green - to be on the safe side - but how are we to know - i see Mikey ran light green having got an M16 championship standard at 0007 - should he or shouldn't he - who can tell us?
Heather is on the 2003 list as JW4 so must run Light Green, Dan is also on as JM4, but as M16 could well have gained JM5. To do so he must have 3 qualifying times, and he got 1 at the 0007, where Adam, Dan & Mikey all got M16 championship, but only Adam & Dan got JM5 Gold, see the published badge times!!! Yes it sounds very odd, but JM5 & JW5 give some odd results because of S/M/L courses. Dan also got 1 at BOC, note the Gold time is again less than the M16 Championship time.
I have spent alot of time checking the WCH junior's results, but believe only Adam & Emily have gained JM/W5 golds in the last year, and Em can still run LG as W14. Happy trawling through the results, we must get an easier way, please!!! Keep smiling.
- mark
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that is astonishing mark, i had no idea that championship standard could ever be less than gold - how on earth are mere mortals ever meant to keep on top of this - especially as badge times don't seem to get published for months on some events by which time people have lost all interest - who published your 2003 list. You definitely need a 2004 list before the YBT final. i am still smiling - it's just that you can't see me ( I wasn't smiling yesterday but that's another story)
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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Gold Standard List
Andy Kelly produced the list and sent the JM/W Gold Certificates to juniors. Unless someone is willing to do this I can't see how we can continue with a competition based on the ageless badge scheme standards. Another year and the 2003 list will become almost meaningless. A simpler way would be to work off Championship badges (which are maintained) and only allow juniors to run down 1 course max.
- mark
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mark wrote:... we could do with all clubs voluntarily updating their standards if no revised list is forthcoming. WCH already have, which is why Adam Bushnell ran Green.
Perhaps we could make that a condition of accepting club's entries, in the spirit of fairness to all?!!!
But as Mrs H says it is often difficult to know at all whether one's own juniors have got the appropriate standard (with such a complicated system), let alone all of the juniors in the club. It's not fair to ask the team managers to do that as well as getting the team together!! (From my experience an awful lot of the juniors/their parents don't know whether they have a Gold standard!)
When I raised the issue of standards lists with Hilary Palmer before the qualifier rounds, she emailed me back with the following... (Apolgies to both HP and AWK for posting from what was a private email, but seeing it's rather relevant here...).
Hilary Palmer in email from 30th September wrote:Re the gold standards list - there is none and as Andrew Kelly said that
he would maintain it but has not yet I cannot give you any hope that a
list will appear and I do not have time to take up this matter myself. I
appreciate that this will cause problems for all clubs - we will all
have to take on trust what people say.
This is probably fine for the qualifiers but maybe someone needs to reconsider this view for the final?
- Blanka
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Can Chris Boycott provide this list as he is Badge secretary.
Re the Championship/Gold thread. The Rule(draft) states Appendix J Draft E June 2003 1.4 Controllers Discretion. Where anomalies are identified badge times may be altered by the event controller or badge scheme co-ordinator.
Examples include:
d) M16 championship time is slower than level 5 gold (a solution: adjust whichever is seen as anomalous to match other standard)
At 0007 this is what happened -obviously the controller didn't consider this. However, looking at the web site the whole of the JM5 badge time calculations are wrong as they should have been calculated for M16A and all M18 -20 classes, i.e different times for each class (rule 1.3.5).
Note that Mikey got gold at Haugh Wood. He is also well within gold at Wharncliffe but Badge times not posted on web. One more gold and hes on Green at the final.
The problem is partly that there is no ref to championship standards in YBT rules, but surely a championship plus 2 golds ought to be the equivalent of three golds
Please note Mikey himself was unsure that he was running the right course.
Re the Championship/Gold thread. The Rule(draft) states Appendix J Draft E June 2003 1.4 Controllers Discretion. Where anomalies are identified badge times may be altered by the event controller or badge scheme co-ordinator.
Examples include:
d) M16 championship time is slower than level 5 gold (a solution: adjust whichever is seen as anomalous to match other standard)
At 0007 this is what happened -obviously the controller didn't consider this. However, looking at the web site the whole of the JM5 badge time calculations are wrong as they should have been calculated for M16A and all M18 -20 classes, i.e different times for each class (rule 1.3.5).
Note that Mikey got gold at Haugh Wood. He is also well within gold at Wharncliffe but Badge times not posted on web. One more gold and hes on Green at the final.
The problem is partly that there is no ref to championship standards in YBT rules, but surely a championship plus 2 golds ought to be the equivalent of three golds
Please note Mikey himself was unsure that he was running the right course.
Diets and fitness are no good if you can't read the map.
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HOCOLITE - addict
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Sounds like a fundamental debate about whether the badge system works to me - if it is that complicated and juniors can't even tell what standard they have reached, then is it really worthwhile? Would it be clear and easy to understand for a newcomer to the sport?
Does that really mean that under YBT rules that it is actually advantageous for juniors to miss events (or at least run badly) between qualifiers and final - surely something is wrong if you can qualify with one team and then those same runners have to run different courses in the final? Surely eligibility should be determined for the whole competition at once each year?
HOCOLITE wrote:Note that Mikey got gold at Haugh Wood. He is also well within gold at Wharncliffe but Badge times not posted on web. One more gold and hes on Green at the final.
Does that really mean that under YBT rules that it is actually advantageous for juniors to miss events (or at least run badly) between qualifiers and final - surely something is wrong if you can qualify with one team and then those same runners have to run different courses in the final? Surely eligibility should be determined for the whole competition at once each year?
- Jon X
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Jon X wrote:Sounds like a fundamental debate about whether the badge system works to me - if it is that complicated and juniors can't even tell what standard they have reached, then is it really worthwhile? Would it be clear and easy to understand for a newcomer to the sport?
This is a problem that the Development Committee are looking into at the moment. If you have anything really constructive to say on the structuring of the badge scheme, then either start a new thread or PM me. This is mostly concerning a Junior review, so if any Juniors have anything to say I'd be very willing to listen. The main issues are improving the links between the ageless classes and classed badges, aswell as integrating colour coded badges in. The other issue is whether this multitude of awards actually works as an incentive or whether it simply over complicates matters. I'll start a new thread for it to be discussed over there, please don't muddle up this one any more than I have already just done!
Will? We've got proper fire now!
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Becks - god
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Re Ian. It's highly possible that it's too late as a good time on Caddihoe suggest gold badge already achieved but again no sogn of bage times on web unless i'm mistaken.
Will people really try and go through the highly complex system of calculation that applies to the JM/JW 5 courses if the times are not posted. I don't think so. We have a spread sheet to do the calc as SI master has to do it for badge events. Even I, with limited maths, could calculate the old badge times. A problem here for the development group.
Will people really try and go through the highly complex system of calculation that applies to the JM/JW 5 courses if the times are not posted. I don't think so. We have a spread sheet to do the calc as SI master has to do it for badge events. Even I, with limited maths, could calculate the old badge times. A problem here for the development group.
Diets and fitness are no good if you can't read the map.
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HOCOLITE - addict
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HOCOLITE wrote:Re Ian. It's highly possible that it's too late as a good time on Caddihoe suggest gold badge already achieved but again no sogn of bage times on web unless i'm mistaken.
On the SARUM website (here - scroll down the page) - however the JW3 figure looks highly suspicious, so there may be other errors.
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Simon - brown
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Gold Standards
Blanka wrote
I have just realised that I started from a copy of (I think) the last list produced, which many will not have. I will get this posted on the Walton Chasers website asap.
For next year this system has got to be sorted.
I agree with many of the comments that this is too complex. We cannot base a competition on a list of Gold standards, if that list cannot be easily maintained. A move to juniors claiming the badges themselves could be easily abused, I can envisage a huge claim for badges immediately after the YBT final!! I believe the JM/W5 S/M/L issue that compounds the problem is being resolved, to remove the anomoly between Championship and Gold times, but I think we should concentrate on creating a simple system that can be easily administered, or we will soon be back to this again.
At first sight it might seem so, but in reality you can do it by checking on the few juniors who might be affected. So you can ignore anyone who already has, for instance, a JW4 Gold if they are still W14. Even if they gained JW5 they are still eligable for Light Green. Likewise many either aren't near to Gold standard or don't travel to Badge events. That cut the number we looked at critically to about 3/4, and many of the events did list Gold badge standards. I am only proposing this (Clubs checking their own juniors) as a stopgap to try to make this year's YBT Final as fair as possible, in the event that no update of Andy's list appears in time.....it is often difficult to know at all whether one's own juniors have got the appropriate standard (with such a complicated system), let alone all of the juniors in the club. It's not fair to ask the team managers to do that as well as getting the team together!! (From my experience an awful lot of the juniors/their parents don't know whether they have a Gold standard!)
I have just realised that I started from a copy of (I think) the last list produced, which many will not have. I will get this posted on the Walton Chasers website asap.
For next year this system has got to be sorted.
I agree with many of the comments that this is too complex. We cannot base a competition on a list of Gold standards, if that list cannot be easily maintained. A move to juniors claiming the badges themselves could be easily abused, I can envisage a huge claim for badges immediately after the YBT final!! I believe the JM/W5 S/M/L issue that compounds the problem is being resolved, to remove the anomoly between Championship and Gold times, but I think we should concentrate on creating a simple system that can be easily administered, or we will soon be back to this again.
- mark
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