Please note the following calculations are completely wrong and should be disregarded.
Thought i'd include some emails, there hmm interesting to read.
Dear All,
As many of you will be aware, changes have been proposed to the Scoring System for the Annual Inter Club Championships that is held annually in conjunction with the Scottish Score.
When Graeme (Ackland) the current Competitions Convenor run his ideas past me I was unsure as to the validity of his proposal. With further research I believe that the proposal that the points one scores are transferred as the Club score is totally unworkable for lots of reasons.
However in my opinion the bottom line is that there has been NO CONSULTATION with Clubs and this is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Please find below copies of items I have passed to SOA to try and highlight my concerns but I am still awaiting a formal reply.
The Scottish Inter Club Champs is an event where each Club Member can contribute to their Club.
Sent 11 September 2004 to Donald Grassie
Donald,
Last night I tried Graemes's system on last year's event held at Devilla and some what ironically the result does change - guess who wins ?
If every competitor is doing the same course I can see a degree of validity in the proposal but there again it creates a situation where the Elite(Them) will score more points than the rest(Us). I believe that what would have to happen to make it fair is that within each Team the (3) scores are tallied and then Club Points awarded between the competing Clubs in that Section.
If this didn't happen then Clubs with a particular depth of ability (Elite) would completely skew the results.
Anyway here are my calculations - hope they make sense.
Inter Club 2003 Devilla
Result ESOC 163 INT 113 GRAMP 96 FVO 75 MAROC 64.
Using Graeme's system
ESOC INT GRAMP FVO MAROC
A ` 410 541 548
A 530 486
A 481
B 350 490 170 570
B 450 469
B 380 421
C
C
C
D 380 370 350 250
D 380 300 311
D 330 260 240
E 300 340 280
E 290 220 180
E 240 130
F 278 170 260
F 196 120
F 180
G
G
G
H 240 188 220
Final totals
INT 3972
ESOC 3574
FVO 2494
GRAMP 1761
MAROC 1310
If within each Team the scores are compared with pts awarded 5 > 1
The result becomes ESOC 25; INT 16; GRAMP 14; MAROC 12 & FVO 9.
I hope my concerns are more easily understood. Clubs with a spread of membership across the age classes should come out on top - provided they get their members to turn out for them.
The other variables cited by Graeme are uncontrollable - the venue dictates who will travel or not eg MOR win @ Lossie but don't travel to Dunrod Hill - their Choice.
Full teams are dependant on Club make -up. Folk do run up to help their Club.
I will speak to you either 2moro or during the week.
If it aint broke dont fix it
Terry
Sent to Donald Grassie, VP Admin prior to last SOA Meeting but it appears as Graeme Ackland wasn't present the matter wasn't fully discussed
Donald,
Further to my email last week can I please make the following points for consideration at to-morrow's meeting
1. I was not the architect behind the current scoring system so I am not in anyway commenting as if "it were my baby" .
2. No system can ever be perfect but the one currently in operation is reasonably efficient as it rewards Clubs who wish to compete, seems to produce winners where there is a range in members - male / female & young / old which I feel is what it was designed for.
3. It has breathed life back into the Scottish Score and makes the event viable (financially).
4. The location does dictate which Clubs will travel or not. Some are not interested; others do try to field a team in the spirit of the event I feel.
5. The need to formally enter is mega important as it does create a link between SOA & the Clubs. This formal paper entry was replaced by a simple - Email if you want to enter system. This should be a Club Committee decision and not left to the whim of individuals to turn up on the day. It is necessary for the current scoring system to operate efficiently.
6. Clubs should not be put in an embarrassing situation where their lack of members & lack of support to this event is highlighted by listing their scores. If they don't want to enter as a Club they should be given the right to decline.
7. It is unfortunate that the SOA Main Web page entry for Drumashie implies that a decision has already been made to change the scoring system for 2004. My understanding is that any changes should be discussed by SOA Exec and then circulated to Clubs for their views then reconsidered by SOA Exec. before any further decision is made. 2004 is a review year ie after the event views are sought and debate held.
8. I would strongly suggest that the status quo is retained for 2004 based on the points above, the statistical info supplied & the lack of time for consultation between now & 31 Oct.
Thanks
Terry
-----------------------
Dear all.
I said I would respond more fully. Unfortunately, I could spend all night writing about the myriad of related issues. I am however not going to delve that deep but will answer the main question and provide a some general explanations.
Before I continue, I believe that it is vitally important that I make clear that I regard it as wholly unacceptable to publicly attack, indirectly or directly, any volunteers, clubs or other bodies. I believe INT, Graeme Ackland, Donald Grassie and the SOA Executive have been ill treated on this occasion. The following "corrections" may explain some of my reasoning:
The SOA Executive believe this years scoring system would not change last years result.
This years interim review was not instigated by our Competitions Convenor.
The interim scoring system was not the Competition Convenor's idea.
The relevant SOA Executive volunteers believed they had answered all of Terry's questions verbally, if not by email.
The SOA Executive volunteers have more pressing matters to deal with and must prioritise accordingly. We must trust them and allow them to deliver the bigger picture.
The SOA Executive discussed the interim proposal at the last meeting and accepted that it was the best option.
The interim scoring system may not be perfect but it was the minimum change necessary to ensure this years event proceeded.
A full consultation was not and will not be conducted for this years scoring system because the change was necessary to see the event proceed, is relatively minor in nature and is only an interim measure. A full review is programmed for next year, at which time a full consultation will take place.
I could add to the list of corrections but will stop here.
Moving on, the important question is whether the SOA Executive are committed to consultation with the membership when major permanent changes are under consideration. The answer is yes.
It is also important that I reconfirm that the 2004 Championships will continue under the interim points scoring system as planned and that a full review will be conducted, with consultation for next year.
Clubs can of course opt out of the ICC if they so wish and inform the organisers.
Constructive feed back is always welcome however, on this issue, for this year, I would recommend that this matter be left in peace.
If I have made any errors I apologise.
Our sport is about going out and running in the countryside with a map. We can all still do this at the Scottish Score Champs and ICC, irrespective of which points scoring system is used, so lets get out running and enjoying ourselves.
Ken.
---------------
remember the interclub competition is VERY serious.
Scottish Score and Interclub Championships.
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
8 posts
• Page 1 of 1
Scottish Score and Interclub Championships.
Last edited by pyrat on Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
pyrat - [nope] cartel
- Posts: 2556
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:02 am
Re: Scottish Score and Interclub Championships.
pyrat wrote:remember the interclub competition is VERY serious.
especially as quite a lot of folk will be hungover and attempting to orienteer round edinburgh instead
“Success is 99% failure� -- Soichiro Honda
-
brooner - [nope] cartel
- Posts: 3931
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:46 pm
- Location: Sydney
thats why we should all go to the David Godfree TM Godfree enterprises adventure running street race on Sunday
Prizes!!!!
Adventure!!!!
Fun!!!!
Boosch!!!!
e-mail for an entry dikalot@nopesport.com
Prizes!!!!
Adventure!!!!
Fun!!!!
Boosch!!!!
e-mail for an entry dikalot@nopesport.com
nope it i still have the coolest hat in school
-
eddie - [nope] cartel
- Posts: 2260
- Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:54 pm
- Location: back at the begining
Just a note to say that Terry has written privately to me to apologise for the incorrect calculation and to say that it was not his intention to "make this personal".
Under this year's scoring (see SOA site for details) the results would have been exactly the same as last year, except in the case of CLYDE who have moved from small clubs to large clubs competition. The reason for changing is primarily in response to a request from the organiser to make the calculations easier so they can be done on the day, and from clubs to allow people to "run up" (on the same course) in SICC while competing in their own class in the Score Championships.
Graeme
Under this year's scoring (see SOA site for details) the results would have been exactly the same as last year, except in the case of CLYDE who have moved from small clubs to large clubs competition. The reason for changing is primarily in response to a request from the organiser to make the calculations easier so they can be done on the day, and from clubs to allow people to "run up" (on the same course) in SICC while competing in their own class in the Score Championships.
Graeme
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
-
graeme - god
- Posts: 4726
- Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:04 pm
- Location: struggling with an pɹɐɔ ʇıɯǝ
Wouldn't it be terrible if the prize for the "best" club was awarded to the club with the "best" runners.
He’s not a real uncle, you know.
-
UncleDickie - nope uncle
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:32 am
- Location: S1 2HB
Depends what you mean by best. If you mean the top elites then yeah, maybe it would. Club champs are about good runners across the board, tis the big relays where the clubs with the top elites get to really show us what they're made of.
Will? We've got proper fire now!
-
Becks - god
- Posts: 2633
- Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:25 pm
- Location: East Preston Street Massif
UncleDickie wrote:I think I mean "them" rather than "us".
But I'm not sure...
To help clarify your confusion...
the "top elites" in the top A-team last year were two M40s and an M18.
Hope that helps,
Graeme
"I am a real uncle and my name isn't Dickie"
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
-
graeme - god
- Posts: 4726
- Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:04 pm
- Location: struggling with an pɹɐɔ ʇıɯǝ
8 posts
• Page 1 of 1
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 207 guests