Well it's a bit quiet round here at the moment so here something to have a think about:
Recently a club mate of mine won a badge event by a good margin and when I congratulate them they said it hadn't been too hard to do as prior to the event they had studied an old map and with the aid of the control descriptions, a compass and a bit of string had worked out precisely the location of most of the control sites.
I was flabberghasted for the following reasons:
A that they had been able to do it;
B that they had wanted to;
C Winning was so important at an event where nothing was at stake except some ranking points.
Now i suppose if the British champs of something was coming up at a place where i had a map _ I would look at it to remind myself what kind of area it was but generally I enjoy the suprise of picking up a map at the start like opening a present - the thrill of seeing what's in store.
what do the rest of you think - is this a good case for not issuing control description before hand ( which doesn't seem to happen abroad and is extra work for hard pressed organisers) - is it cricket - do you do it - or am i just being naive at missing an opportunity to steal a march on the opposition even though it might mean I enjoy the event less because i probably know the course before i run it??
Map Homework?
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
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Re: Map Homework?
I remember standing at the pre start for a colour coded. Maps of the area were on display and we already had control descriptions. I was talking to one of the other competitors and he looked at the map and pointed out a fair amount of the route from the control descriptions, though in the area in question this was simplified by a number of road crossings.
Well as I would be unlikely to win even having done this (simply cannot run fast enough), I am not too concerned.
I will generally look at an old map before an event (if I have one) and work out where the start/finish are and possibly the likely last/first control (it looks good to be able to run off from the start quickly in the good direction), but rarely will I do more than that.
I think it comes down to what you want out of the sport. If winning is all important then anything like this is definitely an idea to give you that extra little something. However, for those of us who are taking it less seriously, we can sit back and relax.
Mrs H. wrote:C Winning was so important at an event where nothing was at stake except some ranking points.
Well as I would be unlikely to win even having done this (simply cannot run fast enough), I am not too concerned.
I will generally look at an old map before an event (if I have one) and work out where the start/finish are and possibly the likely last/first control (it looks good to be able to run off from the start quickly in the good direction), but rarely will I do more than that.
I think it comes down to what you want out of the sport. If winning is all important then anything like this is definitely an idea to give you that extra little something. However, for those of us who are taking it less seriously, we can sit back and relax.
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Simon - brown
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It makes sense to find out as much as you can before a race, do your homework. But I've never really been one to do that too much. A bit of map geeking is ok but sometimes it's good to practice going into a race totally "blind" because you have to do that sometimes too. Also if you have too many preconceived ideas about the course and maybe even what routes to take on an obvious route choice leg you have anticipated, it can be limiting. If the controls are even slightly different it could change the best route and if you've already decided on going left or whatever, you could miss something. Obviously if the forest isn't as clean as you expect you would also have to adapt your plan.
It is legal/fair tho. The information is available to everyone. Some things are pushing the boundaries of what's allowed, like people making their own maps prior to WOC-Sprint 2003. But generally anything that isn't officially forbidden in the rules, should seen as being allowed.
It is legal/fair tho. The information is available to everyone. Some things are pushing the boundaries of what's allowed, like people making their own maps prior to WOC-Sprint 2003. But generally anything that isn't officially forbidden in the rules, should seen as being allowed.
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harry - addict
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Obtaining maps...
From clubmates, friends etc also if there is an old map in circulation the organisers should provide a copy at least put up on the day. Selection race maps are normally available on the internet. Anything in sweden you can usually find on runoway on alternativet.
From clubmates, friends etc also if there is an old map in circulation the organisers should provide a copy at least put up on the day. Selection race maps are normally available on the internet. Anything in sweden you can usually find on runoway on alternativet.
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harry - addict
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Interesting to go that far - I've done the descriptions thing at places that I've run before, but like Simon, can't run fast enought to make a significant difference.
I often study maps of previous events, usually looking for alternative routes, paths, rides etc, that I missed the previous time. It's worked well in the past - but I've also been caught out when they use the other half of the map to the one that I've been studying.
Last w/end I ran somewhere where I'd run 18 months previously. I was able to remember the terrain and the places on the map the night before - I think this helped for the first part of the course which used the same area as ht elast time. My splits show that I tailed off after leaving that area - but that could also have been fatigue. Does anyone else remember terrain and use to for their advantage?
I often study maps of previous events, usually looking for alternative routes, paths, rides etc, that I missed the previous time. It's worked well in the past - but I've also been caught out when they use the other half of the map to the one that I've been studying.
Last w/end I ran somewhere where I'd run 18 months previously. I was able to remember the terrain and the places on the map the night before - I think this helped for the first part of the course which used the same area as ht elast time. My splits show that I tailed off after leaving that area - but that could also have been fatigue. Does anyone else remember terrain and use to for their advantage?
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PorkyFatBoy - diehard
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I like to have a look at an old map to work out possible route choice legs and have a general idea of what the area is like, but like Melons I think having too many preconceptions about where the course is going could lead to making the wrong choices. There can't be many areas where you could predict the course exactly from the descriptions.
What strikes me is how much difference Mrs H's clubmate felt it made to their performance. Knowing the course beforehand means you can make all your routechoices without the pressure, and I guess if you are very confident about where the controls are going to be you can build a mental picture of every control site in the comfort of your own home so you don't have to try and get that detail from the map when you are running along. I vaguely remember a study that showed that route choice is pretty insignificant compared to the time lost around controls so I am guessing that the extra time getting familiar with the control sites made the most difference. If this person could speed the process up so that they can do this at orienteering speed rather than armchair speed they cuold perform like this at all events.
What strikes me is how much difference Mrs H's clubmate felt it made to their performance. Knowing the course beforehand means you can make all your routechoices without the pressure, and I guess if you are very confident about where the controls are going to be you can build a mental picture of every control site in the comfort of your own home so you don't have to try and get that detail from the map when you are running along. I vaguely remember a study that showed that route choice is pretty insignificant compared to the time lost around controls so I am guessing that the extra time getting familiar with the control sites made the most difference. If this person could speed the process up so that they can do this at orienteering speed rather than armchair speed they cuold perform like this at all events.
- Neil - m35
with regards to being famlliar with terrian you have recently been in, that happens with me all the time. if i look at an old map and have run there, i can generally recall exactly what the terrain was like, and even most of my course (given a blank map). i think this comes from using visualisation a lot. i can look at a course and map from not too long ago (2-3 years?) and remember what most of the control sites looked like. if you run on an area a few times in a few years, it only serves to reinforce the memory of what its like. i think this only comes from orienteering in one country for a long time though. once you have been everywhere once it starts adding up. even if a new area is used, you can always say- "that is similar to x place" in terms of terrain (features/runnability etc), and mapping. Experience is invaluble when orienteering, you just have to keep running lots of races and plugging away/training to get it.. one thing i just realised i do, is to look back at courses i have run; sometimes if tidying/bored, you can come across maps, look at them and remember what it was like- reinforcing the memory while its still relatively fresh in your mind.
i dunno.
i dunno.
Pictures are better than words because sometimes words are big and hard to understand.
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Mr. Furness - light green
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That's genius. Because the way memory works, synaptic plasticity of nerves and all that, you are never actually really remembering the event itself you are in fact remembering remembering the event itself. So to get a properly good picture of the terrain you should really go back over old maps on a regular basis. I am going to schedule some regular map geeking into my weekly programme now. Thanks James
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harry - addict
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cheers helen -just thought i might be going on about nothing a bit.
i think that must be the way i remember a lot of stuff- just didn't reallise there may be some science behind it!
i think that must be the way i remember a lot of stuff- just didn't reallise there may be some science behind it!
Pictures are better than words because sometimes words are big and hard to understand.
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Mr. Furness - light green
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Oh dear - what have I done? - but irrespective of whether looking at old maps is a good idea - and I'm sure it is (I think we're touching on that old : Mum:"How did you know where the control was"? Nev:" I just knew it would be there").Do you think it would be a good idea not to issue control descriptions in advance so when it comes to the event people are racing each other on the course - not in their arm chairs?
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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not at races that are important. who cares about it at badge events, its just orienteering, if you really want to win a badge event that much its a bit sad, and if you really care that much about someone doing it, its a bit sad...
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mharky - team nopesport
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I would go as far as to say that there should only be descriptions on maps. That way you pick up everything on the start line. And of course eco-friendly so there aren't bits of paper strewn through the forest.
All our events have overprinted maps with descriptions on the front. No one complains, and no one gets an advantage. There won't be a lot of complaining though because we are running on areas we have been on in the fairly recent past, and we know them fairly well.
Personally I find descriptions on the map easy to handle although turning the folded map over requires dexterity. We could always issue descriptions at -1 as they do at the O-Ringen!
Roger Jackson (WCOC)
All our events have overprinted maps with descriptions on the front. No one complains, and no one gets an advantage. There won't be a lot of complaining though because we are running on areas we have been on in the fairly recent past, and we know them fairly well.
Personally I find descriptions on the map easy to handle although turning the folded map over requires dexterity. We could always issue descriptions at -1 as they do at the O-Ringen!
Roger Jackson (WCOC)
- RJ
Yes I am feeling a bit sad today - but that's got nothing to do with orienteering - just thought it would be interesting to stimulate a bit of debate as it seemed a bit quiet around here this morning - nothing wrong in that is there? congrats on your JEC victory by the way.
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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