There's a meeting on Thursday of the Junior Elite Events Committee and a few things to discuss there that will showe to you all that the people that matter are listening in to Nope and taking our views very seriously.
Firstly they will be announcing that two bits have been passed by the events ops committee. I'm not sure exactly what has changed but I think those of you complaining about too short a course at the first National last year will find the guidelines prevents this.
Then there's the Junior Badge Scheme, where you'll be pleased to here that gold, silver and bronze standards are being kept at National Events. I will emphasize the need to publish these times in results myself.
Finally, relays will be discussed. The general proposal that there becomes one men's/women's open class, and that this is shortened so that M/W18 18s to M/W50s (most probably, I don't the te exact cut off point has been decided) can all run this course. Then, M/W48 - can be changed to M/W50- to allow less confident 18s to still run for their clubs and hopefully allow a few more competitive teams. Age group prizes for M/W40/50 would then be presented to elibigible teams within this big class, providing a relay with far more teams and far more competition.
This was talked about on nope ages ago so I thought I'd add a poll to see what you think. The meeting's on Thursday so get in quick! I think it sounds like a great idea.
BOF Junior Events update
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BOF Junior Events update
Will? We've got proper fire now!
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Becks - god
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Is this for British, JK or both?
In principle, I really like the idea of putting us older runners all in one relay, although that will depend on quite HOW short they make it. The JK relays this year were seriously unshort for the bulk of the field at M120 for instance, and there were loads of mutterings about not bothering again if that carried on.. I suspect this will need to be a suck it and see to see what works best.
You mention M/W48 or 50-. What about the younger relay(s)?
In principle, I really like the idea of putting us older runners all in one relay, although that will depend on quite HOW short they make it. The JK relays this year were seriously unshort for the bulk of the field at M120 for instance, and there were loads of mutterings about not bothering again if that carried on.. I suspect this will need to be a suck it and see to see what works best.
You mention M/W48 or 50-. What about the younger relay(s)?
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awk - god
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As far as I know the younger relays stay the same. If anyone in the know would like to correct me though, feel free. The M/W50- may just apply to the JK.
I think it's more about discussion at the moment then passing things, so any views are welcome.
I think it's more about discussion at the moment then passing things, so any views are welcome.
Will? We've got proper fire now!
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Becks - god
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In case you missed it before.
A single relay would be great, but I'm not sure one course fits all will work. What distance will suit M21 and W50?
As posted in June, I'm organising the Scottish relays next year and looking for suggestions. Here's a first go through at what we thought we might do.
__________________________________________________________
There will be one senior relay, based on a handicap system. The
handicap will be applied via course lengths, not restrictions on
team composition.
There would be three laps of (say - dont get hung up on the numbers) 4, 6 and 7 km. They would be gaffled within each distance and with each other (i.e. there could be as many as 9 first controls).
Handicap points 2 for being a woman, 1 for over 40, another for
over 50, another for over 60. For every two points, you run one course
shorter.
The basic relay (mens open) would be something like three 7km
courses. A team comprising a W40 (3), an M60 (3) and an W21 (2) might run (4,6,6) or (4,4,7) - they could choose.
Womens open (6 points) would be the only defined course as 3x6km.
Mens open is obvious.
We'd also have ad hoc teams (any three people entering together),
pot luck teams (people entering as individuals with the organisers finding
them teammates) and non-comp teams (people not wanting to run as far as the handicap suggests).
The idea is firstly to produce a relay atmosphere with everyone
head to head with everyone else, slower people keeping up by having shorter options. Secondly to make it as easy as possible
to construct teams. Thirdly to enhances competition - three W60s can race with three M21s without either having to run an unreasonably long/short distance. Compromised is "fairness" - we dont have every team running the same legs (although the M/W open would). There are nine combinations.
If you want mixed leg lengths, then we could define the basic
relay to be 7,6,7 (or equivalently give every team two handicap points).
One problem is that there are a number of age group trophies for things
like W35+. People will complain if they aren't awarded. I propose to
hand out these trophies to the first team in the relay with appropriate
composition.
As posted in June, I'm organising the Scottish relays next year and looking for suggestions. Here's a first go through at what we thought we might do.
__________________________________________________________
There will be one senior relay, based on a handicap system. The
handicap will be applied via course lengths, not restrictions on
team composition.
There would be three laps of (say - dont get hung up on the numbers) 4, 6 and 7 km. They would be gaffled within each distance and with each other (i.e. there could be as many as 9 first controls).
Handicap points 2 for being a woman, 1 for over 40, another for
over 50, another for over 60. For every two points, you run one course
shorter.
The basic relay (mens open) would be something like three 7km
courses. A team comprising a W40 (3), an M60 (3) and an W21 (2) might run (4,6,6) or (4,4,7) - they could choose.
Womens open (6 points) would be the only defined course as 3x6km.
Mens open is obvious.
We'd also have ad hoc teams (any three people entering together),
pot luck teams (people entering as individuals with the organisers finding
them teammates) and non-comp teams (people not wanting to run as far as the handicap suggests).
The idea is firstly to produce a relay atmosphere with everyone
head to head with everyone else, slower people keeping up by having shorter options. Secondly to make it as easy as possible
to construct teams. Thirdly to enhances competition - three W60s can race with three M21s without either having to run an unreasonably long/short distance. Compromised is "fairness" - we dont have every team running the same legs (although the M/W open would). There are nine combinations.
If you want mixed leg lengths, then we could define the basic
relay to be 7,6,7 (or equivalently give every team two handicap points).
One problem is that there are a number of age group trophies for things
like W35+. People will complain if they aren't awarded. I propose to
hand out these trophies to the first team in the relay with appropriate
composition.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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I only reluctantly take part in relays because they are too long after two days of competition and seem to be getting longer. this years JK I did a LG leg of an Ad Hoc and it was longer and nearly as technical as my two W45 days. I certainly would not run in an open relay for M/W 50's and under if that's the suggestion. I think that would be so demoralising for the majority of W's to have to run against M21's. If the relays specified that there had to be say 1 M21-M40, 1 W45/50 1 M45/50 or W21/35 it might just be workable.
HOCOLITE
HOCOLITE
Diets and fitness are no good if you can't read the map.
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HOCOLITE - addict
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Rocky, last spring wrote:was mulling over the situation with relays in britain. imjust gonna talk about the guys here but its all equally applicable to the girls classes as well.
my proposition is abolishing classes such as 'short open' or 'medium open' and making the premier class shorter.
imagine this, the mens premier relay comprises three x full classic races, 90 minutes of proper bo orienteering for the daddies. then the winners are gonna be the club which has the best three senior guys. an ideal situation, but there will be next to no competition as most clubs will struggle to find three runners prepared to run a race such as this, especially if one of the team is weaker and only running to fill a space and is liable to finish 10-20 minutes down even with a good run. - while he may be up for the challenge the rest of his team will know that no matter what they are probably not going to win and will not take the race seriously.
now consider the present situation. the mens premier typically has a leading time of 3x45 minutes. the team with the three best m21s typically still does best but now the top juniors can compete as well as the slightly past it seniors. so the reults will not change at the top, but the field will be of a moderate size and the race more interesting.
but, slower or less able navigators will be put off, and since its there, will want to run the short open. it seems ludicrous to me that there are so many more team running short open than premier: eg at british relays:
mens premier 23, short open 39, while in the girls it was worse:
womens premier 13 (!) womens short 28!
so i propose that the premier class be made up of legs with a elt of 35-25-35, and all the other open classes be abolished. this should allow all runners over 18 to get a competitive run, and no one should be discouraged because of the distance. a 4-5km leg shouldn't be too much for anyone???
also, in this situation, the argument for skipping the classic race is weakened, seriously, is it going to affect your relay performance all that much?
yours, rocky
see the full discussion here http://www.nopesport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1040
Last edited by rocky on Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rocky - [nope] cartel
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HOCOLITE wrote:I. I think that would be so demoralising for the majority of W's to have to run against M21's.
i dont think anyone has suggested men and women should compete over the same course. and if they have, shoot them.
If the relays specified that there had to be say 1 M21-M40, 1 W45/50 1 M45/50 or W21/35 it might just be workable.
HOCOLITE
NO NO NO NO NO!!! cease this pointless talk right now
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rocky - [nope] cartel
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It is possible to have these combinations aswell, and the course lengths will have to be appropriate for the people competing in them. But the point is that people within those age ranges should be able to particpate in a team made up of whoever they want, so that there's as many teams as possible. And so what if you set off at the same time as the elites - there will also be a load of people that normally run your age class setting off then aswell.
I'm not sure that M/W50 should be the cut off, maybe 45 instead. It'll be a fast, short race for the elites but then the best will still win. What it may do is make the competition a little closer, which we can all appreciate.
I'm not sure that M/W50 should be the cut off, maybe 45 instead. It'll be a fast, short race for the elites but then the best will still win. What it may do is make the competition a little closer, which we can all appreciate.
Will? We've got proper fire now!
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Becks - god
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Becks wrote:the point is that people within those age ranges should be able to particpate in a team made up of whoever they want, so that there's as many teams as possible.
Exactly! Fit the courses to the people who want to run, don't force the people to fit some arbitrary set of age restrictions. Bring any three people, any age, give them three courses of appropriate length for them. Then the cut off comes at the age where people really want a shorter winning time.
And why shouldn't W45s compete against the M21s? - if both have a course with 30 minute winning time, they're probably doing half the distance.
Graeme
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Sorry, but have to disagree Graeme. Bring in what you describe, and you reintroduce the very complexity that needs to be got rid of, plus an extra element of luck: it could all depend on the planner getting the call just right. Who's to say what distance would represent an exact match between W45 and M21 (say)? Don't even go there, except for fun relays, where the results don't define champions. Better to have a FEW categories within a bigger race. (Not like the very silly situation now where M35 and M40 relays run the same race, but are split apart in the results, with M35 teams being declared British Relay Champions when beaten by an M40+ team).
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awk - god
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