Obviously this is a message for the Juniors out there - feel free to move it Moderators!
BOF have just sent out a mailing concerning changing the conditions for Junior Badges at Regional and National Events to try and give Juniors something to aim for and increase their remaining in the sport. It goes something like:
At National Events, only Championship Badges will be available, as these as perceived as "harder" events that you progress to. The criteria for a Championship standard is being withint 125% of the winner's time.
At Regional Events, you can get gold, silver and bronze standards as normal. At events of less than 11 people, these wil be awarded for the winner's time plus 25%, 50% and 100% respectively. At bigger events of 11-20 people, it'll be an average of the top two times plus those percentages. At big events with over 20 people, the average of the top three times is used.
For District events, the colour scheme of earning a colour for being in the top 50% or within 150% of the winner's time will be used.
This all sounds a tad confusing and I don't want a ton of comments from Gross about BOF fudging. If Juniors have any constructive points about this sounding too easy or hard, and about how much of an incentive you actually find these badges, that'd be cool.
Junior Badge Scheme
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
Junior Badge Scheme
Will? We've got proper fire now!
-
Becks - god
- Posts: 2633
- Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:25 pm
- Location: East Preston Street Massif
most of that sounds fairly familiar. i get that the only Change is that at national events, gold, silver and bronze standards will no longer be available.
that i don't see the point of, but then...
maybe it's because at national events the juniors are running courses w different names than at badge events, so the only badges available to course, say, M16A are championship, whereas the gold silver and bronze will only be avalible to the likes of J3M. but if that's the case then they probably ought to say it explicitly. i'm probably reading too much into it, perhaps.
that i don't see the point of, but then...
maybe it's because at national events the juniors are running courses w different names than at badge events, so the only badges available to course, say, M16A are championship, whereas the gold silver and bronze will only be avalible to the likes of J3M. but if that's the case then they probably ought to say it explicitly. i'm probably reading too much into it, perhaps.
-
ic - yellow
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:33 pm
- Location: retired
the badges matter more to U14s and the 16s who are looking to challenge themselves - personally, i think that basing these on the winner is wrong, because if on JM5M Rhodri Buffet won by miles and meant no one in the 9 man field got a silver or gold, then person who was 2nd might be disheartened. Orienteering is about personal achievement and how well you do the course, not in comparison to others. We need a system based on the planner sets a time for gold silver and bronze before the race based on distance, climb and speed of terrain. Then if you beat this time you achieve your badge. These then could be adjusted if it means none/all get gold/silver/bronze
-
rob f - yellow
- Posts: 2191
- Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:14 pm
- Location: Manchester
The arguement against this is that it can always be worked out quickly and easily what the badge times are once the results are in with this system. Planners can be overworked enough without having to predict badge times for all their courses aswell. Also, every planner will have a different expectation of how fast their courses should be run, whereas this approach standardises it.
Why does Rhodri running the course super fast make it a disincentive? Run faster and get closer to him - he's not invincible!
Why does Rhodri running the course super fast make it a disincentive? Run faster and get closer to him - he's not invincible!
Will? We've got proper fire now!
-
Becks - god
- Posts: 2633
- Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:25 pm
- Location: East Preston Street Massif
Somebody needs to decide what the badges are there for.
Orienteering is what you want it to be, and if YOU think it's about personal achievement then that's fine, but others think it's about competition and doesn't matter if you've had the best run ever if you didn't get the medal you wanted then it's no good.
So which is the badge scheme set to highlight? Encouragement for trying hard or pure competition?
Personally I think there's been far too much messing with the juniors. First they remove rankings for juniors, then we change the names of the age groups without changing the content, then we change them again to something I don't understand but seems to be virtually the same (bar L/S on 5??) but just with a different name. Now this "change" which also doesn't appear to be much difference?
Orienteering is about personal achievement and how well you do the course, not in comparison to others.
Orienteering is what you want it to be, and if YOU think it's about personal achievement then that's fine, but others think it's about competition and doesn't matter if you've had the best run ever if you didn't get the medal you wanted then it's no good.
So which is the badge scheme set to highlight? Encouragement for trying hard or pure competition?
Personally I think there's been far too much messing with the juniors. First they remove rankings for juniors, then we change the names of the age groups without changing the content, then we change them again to something I don't understand but seems to be virtually the same (bar L/S on 5??) but just with a different name. Now this "change" which also doesn't appear to be much difference?
-
FatBoy - addict
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:46 pm
I think perhaps the main issue here is not how to set the levels at which you acheieve badges, but to ask whether they really work as an incentive or not. When I was 10-14, I collected every badge I earned and have an O top covered in them. Then however, I got into running for England and worried about selection rather than Badge Times. Today, my dad still says well done if I get a gold time but I never think about them.
I'd be intrigued to know if those juniors outside the Start Squad look at these times and use them to gauge their performance, or if they have other aims (if they have any at all!). I think badges are great when you're younger, to give you a positive gauge that you're getting better rather than the fact you seem to spend more time knowing where you are. I'm not convinced that too many older juniors are worried about them though.
Opinions people, opinions!
I'd be intrigued to know if those juniors outside the Start Squad look at these times and use them to gauge their performance, or if they have other aims (if they have any at all!). I think badges are great when you're younger, to give you a positive gauge that you're getting better rather than the fact you seem to spend more time knowing where you are. I'm not convinced that too many older juniors are worried about them though.
Opinions people, opinions!
Will? We've got proper fire now!
-
Becks - god
- Posts: 2633
- Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:25 pm
- Location: East Preston Street Massif
Know I'm not a junior any more but when I was I thought they were a great incentive, initially I had no idea about them untill we had a UVHS O-club prizegiving and lots of us got badges, from then on it was always a good way to compare from race to race and something to aim for even if you weren't going for selection. Also NWJS use them as one of their stipulations for invitation so if you were trying to get into the squad they were a big aim.
-
cj - yellow
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:37 pm
Becks wrote:
Why does Rhodri running the course super fast make it a disincentive? Run faster and get closer to him - he's not invincible!
example, i'm personally not worried about rhodri
-
rob f - yellow
- Posts: 2191
- Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:14 pm
- Location: Manchester
Looking at Becks's original post:
It seems the only difference to the current scheme is that gold, silver and bronze are to be removed from national events. Not exactly a major step in any direction. With three different types of badges now available, that's two schemes too many. Needs much greater simplification than that if there are going to be any changes at all. (And before anybody says that I was responsible for introducing a complexity, the change in regional classes was meant to be a first step towards a greater integration/simplification across the board).
As for badge as incentive: feedback I got when surveying juniors a couple of years ago indicated that badges were certainly so for younger juniors, and also for quite a few older ones coming into the sport and progressing. For regional squad and upwards (plus a higher proportion of older juniors), they appeared more useful as standards to measure against than as actual incentives to achieve.
It seems the only difference to the current scheme is that gold, silver and bronze are to be removed from national events. Not exactly a major step in any direction. With three different types of badges now available, that's two schemes too many. Needs much greater simplification than that if there are going to be any changes at all. (And before anybody says that I was responsible for introducing a complexity, the change in regional classes was meant to be a first step towards a greater integration/simplification across the board).
As for badge as incentive: feedback I got when surveying juniors a couple of years ago indicated that badges were certainly so for younger juniors, and also for quite a few older ones coming into the sport and progressing. For regional squad and upwards (plus a higher proportion of older juniors), they appeared more useful as standards to measure against than as actual incentives to achieve.
-
awk - god
- Posts: 3224
- Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:29 pm
- Location: Bradford
FatBoy wrote:Personally I think there's been far too much messing with the juniors. First they remove rankings for juniors, then we change the names of the age groups without changing the content, then we change them again to something I don't understand but seems to be virtually the same (bar L/S on 5??) but just with a different name. ?
Age groups were changes because the IOF changed them. As for JM/JW scheme, the courses weren't drastically changed, except for one or two significant tweaks, but the classes were drastically changed. Incidentally, the original names to be used directly related the classes to the colour standards, but feedback from juniors indicated a strong desire for a completely different name. I still think it was a mistake, but democracy and all that you know....!
-
awk - god
- Posts: 3224
- Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:29 pm
- Location: Bradford
As ther family member who sews all the badges on, I know that badges (orienteering, swimming, Cub etc) are an enormous source of pride and satisfaction to my children. Achieving silver, then gold then championship has been a target my son has worked for over the past 18 months. He is still in the youngest junior age class, so I can't say anything about whether badges mean as much to M/W12+.
I think that to make only championship available at National Events could be de-motivating. I though that a TD2 course (M/W10A) was supposed to be TD2 whatever the event, so surely National Events aren't then harder events that this age class progresses to? Or are they? National event guidelines say that courses should
"test the orienteering ability of the leading competitors in each class.",
but then goes on to say that they should be at the right technical difficulty and, to be honest the definiton of TD2 in the guidelines (no route choice, no more than two decision points per leg , route along obvious line features etc) doesn't really give much scope for a National Event to be harder than a badge event. Have I missed a really obvioud point here????
I think that to make only championship available at National Events could be de-motivating. I though that a TD2 course (M/W10A) was supposed to be TD2 whatever the event, so surely National Events aren't then harder events that this age class progresses to? Or are they? National event guidelines say that courses should
"test the orienteering ability of the leading competitors in each class.",
but then goes on to say that they should be at the right technical difficulty and, to be honest the definiton of TD2 in the guidelines (no route choice, no more than two decision points per leg , route along obvious line features etc) doesn't really give much scope for a National Event to be harder than a badge event. Have I missed a really obvioud point here????
- jab
- orange
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:30 pm
- Location: up the faraway tree
I use the Gold and Championships standard at large regiaonal and at gaugue of how well I have done compared to the winners, Start squad members etc.
I think they are more meanigful than actual placings if you don't know the other competitors very well because 3rd could be 10 minutes or 30seconds behind 1st.
I think they are more meanigful than actual placings if you don't know the other competitors very well because 3rd could be 10 minutes or 30seconds behind 1st.
- CHS
- blue
- Posts: 412
- Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:26 pm
yes well said gaz, like the prizes they have at foriegn events - modum 2 day douglas won a blender, myself a bag, rach an electric tooth brush - maybe instead of those HMV vouchers!
-
rob f - yellow
- Posts: 2191
- Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:14 pm
- Location: Manchester
I can't imagine I would push myself nearer to a heart attack to try to win an electric toothbrush or bag! It's just a bonus if you get something for winning unless the prizes are collosal (like £k or cars)
Having a standard to compare yourself against is good. A simple scheme that applied to all events beyond a certain level would be good. I quite like the "winner+x%" model.
In my experience younger or less experieced juniors like badges and similar incentive schemes in general - but they grow out of them.
Having a standard to compare yourself against is good. A simple scheme that applied to all events beyond a certain level would be good. I quite like the "winner+x%" model.
In my experience younger or less experieced juniors like badges and similar incentive schemes in general - but they grow out of them.
-
chrisecurtis - red
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:34 pm
- Location: near Gatwick
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 164 guests