Short Green vs Light Green

[DaveL]

Hello All!
I'm just starting to plan DFOK's National and SEL event at South Ashdown in Jan 25 (do come along - it's going to be great!), and as usual I am a bit flummoxed by the range of various types of Green course that are required - Green, Short Green, Very Short Green and Light Green!
The first three I get - older competitors want a shorter course at same TD, but I just don't see the point of Light Green. BOF Guidance says Short Green is 3-4kms TD 5 and Light Green is 3-4kms TD 4. But given that nowhere in SE is anywhere close to TD 5 is there any point in providing a Lt Green ?
For reference, at last DFOK National we had 22 on Sht Green and 18 on Lt Green, so competitor overload is not a problem.

I could go on to the issue of Brown in SEL which generally gets about 6 competitors (none of whom therefore get BOF Ranking Pts) but that's a separate subject !

[Snail]

Jan 25??

[NeilC]

Consider physicality. A 14 year-old on LG can be asked to do things that it would be better not to expect an 80 year old to do.

[DaveL]

sorry - yes it's in Jan 26 !
and re physicality - yes maybe thats a point and obviously I wouldnt put controls at bottom of huge depressions or require rope assisted climbs, but not sure how relevant it is in the SE?
Again, using our last national as a guide, the old people on Sht Green had 95m climb, and the young lads on Lt Green just 80m!
Do you fancy controlling it Neil to make sure I have the perfect Lt Green !!!!!

[NeilC]

For South Ashdown I would be thinking more about marshy tussocks. Sorry David committed to a Level A in early Feb.

[pete.owens]

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of TD5 legs even in the south. And if you can find such legs then include them in the short green course. OK, you are probably not going to encounter legs requiring sustained fine contour navigation, but there are other differences. Mistakes on TD4 courses should not be expensive so you need a collecting feature not far beyond every control - also TD4 should not need to navigate using indistinct contour features (single contour hills and the like).

However,
IF you have planned your very best short green course as difficult from a technical point of view as possible and you haven't had to avoid some good bits due to physical difficulty and all the legs are still TD4 or less -
THEN that course IS a light green course and should be described as such; there is no point offering a separate short green course.

[pete.owens]

Again, using our last national as a guide, the old people on Sht Green had 95m climb, and the young lads on Lt Green just 80m!

And looking at RG for that event there were effectively 3 very similar light green courses (2 without ranking points) serving a total of 38 competitors. In that case the light green course would have worked for all of them - a tad longer than VSG and a tad shorter that SG.

However, there is a section of low visibility wrinkly terrain (near 12-13 on the short brown course) where TD5 legs would be possible.

[pete.owens]

I could go on to the issue of Brown in SEL which generally gets about 6 competitors (none of whom therefore get BOF Ranking Pts) but that's a separate subject !

Not really - it is still a matter of planning more courses than can be justified by the potential entry.

If an event offers both a 10 km Black course and an 8km Short Brown course then that should be sufficient choice for anyone wanting to run a course of about 9km. Only plan a Brown course if you think the Black or Short Brown are likely to be oversubscribed.

[roadrunner]

If an event's part of a league and you have to run the same course each time to score (not sure if that's the case for SEL), then surely you would need Light Green and Short Green - but maybe they could be the same course?

[pete.owens]

That is an argument for the league being less prescriptive about insisting on so many different courses at events.

[Arnold]

Given that your average Level B event in the SE now attracts maybe 300 people on a good day, I think you could definitely combine the courses as you suggest (Brown/Sh Brown or Black/Brown plus SG/VSG/LG) assuming for the latter there really is no TD5 terrain available.

Be interesting to know how many people actually look at the SE League vs just wanting a nice day out running against a good set of competitors. Certainly I’m in the latter camp and will just choose whichever course feels best (and has the best spread of competitors) & have never looked at SEL points.

A related and more radical option is to reduce the number of “big” events every year away from one per year per club. So rather than a lot of events with a smaller set of runners each time, you have fewer bigger events that most people turn up to.

[SeanC]

My feeling is that unless we're talking about obvious areas of complex contours, it's very difficult to distinguish between TD4 and TD5 and in reality the purpose (as defined by what clubs produce) of a light green course is to be 'technically harder than an orange, but not as technically hard as as a short green'. Pedantically for most of our South East areas, the short green 'as technically hard as we can make it' might be TD4 so you could combine the courses and fulfil the guidelines, but on the ground the light green makes it easier for new orienteers to progress from 'easy' orange. The fact that the step up in difficulty will be gentler in the South East than the Lake District is at least one small advantage the South East has

Personally I think a score course is a better 'transition' course to technical orienteering than Light Green. So if combining Light Green and Short Green a score course should be provided in lieu.

Looking back at Saxons Hindleap (Ashdown Forest) light green/short green courses https://www.saxons.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#57&course=7,9 there is a case that several short green controls might be TD5. A good debating point here. However at Eridge (sort of Ashdown Forest) the Light Green looks orangy in places and the Short Green doesn't look like TD5. See https://www.saxons.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#83&course=3,5

[SJC]

Looking back at Saxons Hindleap (Ashdown Forest) light green/short green courses there is a case that several short green controls might be TD5.

Sorry, but nothing like TD5 controls.
All the control sites are too close to obvious relocating features so mistakes are not going to result in a large time loss.

[pete.owens]

My feeling is that unless we're talking about obvious areas of complex contours, it's very difficult to distinguish between TD4 and TD5 and in reality the purpose (as defined by what clubs produce) of a light green course is to be 'technically harder than an orange, but not as technically hard as as a short green'.

That is a mistake that novice planners often make - but the technical difficulty is an absolute standard relating to specific skills. Just because other courses might not be a as navigationally challenging as ideal that is no excuse to dumb down the light green course.

It is explicitly stated in the rules:

8.5.2 In those areas which only provide orienteering of a lower than ideal Technical Difficulty for the Green courses and above, courses up to Light Green are to be planned to the correct absolute standard.

[SeanC]

I suspect those rules are widely ignored in the South East at least, possibly because of this hazyness between TD5 and TD4.

Dave - I think you are correct to challenge whether you need two separate courses. I can see that the 'Sunny Sussex' event had light green and short green combined. See https://www.so.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#447&course=8. It's also true that the South East League rules at https://www.seoa.org.uk/info/orienteering-competitions-within-seoa/south-east-league say that there should be both a Light Green and a Short Green, but it doesn't say must, so personally I would cut down on the workload and combine them, but also I would put on a score course as IMHO that is the best option to help new (particularly adult) orienteers progress onto technical courses

Except, that now the marketing is even more confusing, there is now a new shade of green, 'light/short green'. Or is it short/light green? If it is confusing to experienced orienteers, what must it be like for the newbie! So will DFOK be brave and just axe the Light Green completely? at least cutting out one shade of green...