We've had a few discussions on control description symbols here before.
Personally I am not a fan, and even after 40 years I don't know all the symbols. Agreed - an unnecessary thing to add to the full bucket of information we throw at new orienteers.
I think there is a minority of people who prefer symbols to english text and find them easier. There are some who believe they are easier for younger juniors.
The main reason why we see pictoral descriptions at pretty much all events, even local events is because we see them at the big events, and the more ambitious orienteers like to use them at local events for practice, or see it as good training for juniors. It is then up to organisers and planners to consider whether to use text descriptions for the shorter courses, with the potential for conflict with orienteers who see the purpose of yellow and orange courses at local events as developing juniors to become orienteers competing at a good level in senior courses.
Harping on about score courses at colour coded events - this is another reason for doing score courses as these can happily use text descriptions without such conflicts since these courses will be unlikely to be used by ambitious experienced orienteers or juniors on the pathway to future greatness.
Where is everyone?
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Re: Where is everyone?
From the IOF "International Specifications for Control Descriptions"
Orienteering is a worldwide sport. It is the aim of the IOF control description symbols to provide a standard means for orienteers from all countries to be able to understand control descriptions without ambiguity or the need for language translation.
- DJM
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Re: Where is everyone?
That makes sense for a certain type of course/event, but much less sense for others.
- Len
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Re: Where is everyone?
DJM wrote:From the IOF "International Specifications for Control Descriptions"Orienteering is a worldwide sport. It is the aim of the IOF control description symbols to provide a standard means for orienteers from all countries to be able to understand control descriptions without ambiguity or the need for language translation.
I agree with that, and (for example) at the O-Ringen I doubt that many non-Scandinavians would be happy with text descriptions in Swedish! But for lower-key events, I don't think it's an issue; if there are loose descriptions available, it wouldn't be hard to offer a choice even.
In the times I was referring to, as well as Championships, JK, etc, we had "colour-coded events" which were relatively low-key and could earn you colour-coded badges by finishing in the top half (or winner's time plus 50%, I think) and "badge events" which could earn you Gold/Silver/Bronze BOF badges and certificates, which were higher-grade events with courses based on age category. The former would usually have text descriptions, the latter symbolic. With the moving of (almost) all events to a colour-coded style, the distinction seems to have been lost.
- roadrunner
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Re: Where is everyone?
If symbolic control descriptions aren't used at introductory events then people won't get the chance to learn them. It'll become like map scales, where people (both juniors and newer, younger adults) are bewildered when confronted with 1:15k the first time they go to the JK because all they've ever experienced at smaller events is 1:7.5k.
I think we also overestimate the importance of control descriptions for beginners, who will mostly just be trying to find their way to the centre of the circle on the map and not worrying about what all those additional symbols mean. The only thing I ever tell genuine newcomers about control descriptions is how to check the code.
The sort of control that requires you to interpret the description to find it correctly - multilevel structures or ambiguously placed on one side of an uncrossable feature - has no place on a course aimed at newcomers.
The solution for courses that are targeted at newcomers is to print loose descriptions that have the symbols and text printed side-by-side. These can be produced simply by ticking a box in most course planning software. The experienced orienteers who don't want the written descriptions can just fold them out of sight.
I think we also overestimate the importance of control descriptions for beginners, who will mostly just be trying to find their way to the centre of the circle on the map and not worrying about what all those additional symbols mean. The only thing I ever tell genuine newcomers about control descriptions is how to check the code.
The sort of control that requires you to interpret the description to find it correctly - multilevel structures or ambiguously placed on one side of an uncrossable feature - has no place on a course aimed at newcomers.
The solution for courses that are targeted at newcomers is to print loose descriptions that have the symbols and text printed side-by-side. These can be produced simply by ticking a box in most course planning software. The experienced orienteers who don't want the written descriptions can just fold them out of sight.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Where is everyone?
Actually thinking about it, another advantage of score courses for less experienced/occasional orienteers is that most of the time they don't really need control descriptions as the controls can be numbered on the map with the control code.
I do agree that for this group that even on the line courses they are less important than other things to learn - the map, start and finish procedure, the punching system, safety bearings, various jargon, remembering to download. I find myself when explaining it all saying something like "oh and finally there is this piece of paper which you use to check you've been to the correct control, control 1 is number 34, control 2 number 47. Not all controls are your course" Sometimes you can see the forehead crinkling up like the map and that crucial information gets forgotten and a mispunch happens with "disqualified" being the sad fruits of the first timers possibly heroic effort.. Did I say that was another advantage of score courses?
I do agree that for this group that even on the line courses they are less important than other things to learn - the map, start and finish procedure, the punching system, safety bearings, various jargon, remembering to download. I find myself when explaining it all saying something like "oh and finally there is this piece of paper which you use to check you've been to the correct control, control 1 is number 34, control 2 number 47. Not all controls are your course" Sometimes you can see the forehead crinkling up like the map and that crucial information gets forgotten and a mispunch happens with "disqualified" being the sad fruits of the first timers possibly heroic effort.. Did I say that was another advantage of score courses?
- SeanC
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Re: Where is everyone?
we also overestimate the importance of control descriptions for beginners, who will mostly just be trying to find their way to the centre of the circle on the map
Too true - I've always found that finding my way to the centre of the circle has been the best way of finding the control. I rarely look at the descriptions unless it's not clear from the map exactly where the control is located.
As a junior, when pictorial descriptions were a bit of a novelty, I liked learning what the hieroglyphics meant but maybe that's why I'm still here.
I really do think there are more fundamental issues that make the sport less appealing than it once was - but as people who like the sport we are not best placed to know what they are - we should be asking the people who try it a couple of times and don't come back what the reason is. (Yes I realise this is logistically quite hard).
- Tim
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Re: Where is everyone?
Tim wrote: As a junior, when pictorial descriptions were a bit of a novelty, I liked learning what the hieroglyphics meant but maybe that's why I'm still here.
I really do think there are more fundamental issues that make the sport less appealing than it once was - but as people who like the sport we are not best placed to know what they are - we should be asking the people who try it a couple of times and don't come back what the reason is. (Yes I realise this is logistically quite hard).
I suspect that the situation is different when you start as a junior (so working your way up from TD1) compared to when you start as an adult (probably doing TD3/4 from the start). But I agree that asking the people who don't come back (or don't renew their membership) is the best solution. When I tried to encourage friends to give orienteering a go, the main objection was "I can't run and think at the same time", which is probably valid but doesn't help since that's fundamentally what the sport is all about.
- roadrunner
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Re: Where is everyone?
The scots have it right in giving pictorial descriptions for everybody; giving youngsters text is not helping. Very young juniors may not be able to read, or may not have English as a first language and will probably not be familiar with the obscure terminology we use to describe geographic features.
When they start on the white course the don't need control descriptions - just follow the path till they reach a control, which should set them in the direction of the next one. The only thing they should be checking is the control code - and that is in column B. However, they are starting to get used to the method of presentation and might start to learn the symbols for road, path and junction.
When they start yellow courses they still don't need the descriptions. The control will be visible from the handrail they are following so they are still looking for a kite rather than a feature. However, the information is still there, and they can start to become familiar with some more of the symbols and associating them with features on the ground.
Next step - orange and the description starts to be of use. So it is a good idea that they have already gained some familiarity with the system while progressing through white and yellow. Still at this level navigating to whatever is at the centre of the circle on the map should work, so they can gradually accumulate more symbols.
If we are "helpful" to novices by providing text descriptions at all local events then their first encounter with pictorial descriptions could be in the start line at the JK. Not the best place to be learning an entire new system.
When they start on the white course the don't need control descriptions - just follow the path till they reach a control, which should set them in the direction of the next one. The only thing they should be checking is the control code - and that is in column B. However, they are starting to get used to the method of presentation and might start to learn the symbols for road, path and junction.
When they start yellow courses they still don't need the descriptions. The control will be visible from the handrail they are following so they are still looking for a kite rather than a feature. However, the information is still there, and they can start to become familiar with some more of the symbols and associating them with features on the ground.
Next step - orange and the description starts to be of use. So it is a good idea that they have already gained some familiarity with the system while progressing through white and yellow. Still at this level navigating to whatever is at the centre of the circle on the map should work, so they can gradually accumulate more symbols.
If we are "helpful" to novices by providing text descriptions at all local events then their first encounter with pictorial descriptions could be in the start line at the JK. Not the best place to be learning an entire new system.
- pete.owens
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Re: Where is everyone?
pete.owens wrote:If we are "helpful" to novices by providing text descriptions at all local events then their first encounter with pictorial descriptions could be in the start line at the JK. Not the best place to be learning an entire new system.
Alternatively, if we're not "helpful" to novices, the chances of them ever getting to the start line at the JK are slim.
- spitalfields
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Re: Where is everyone?
pete.owens wrote:The scots have it right in giving pictorial descriptions for everybody; giving youngsters text is not helping. Very young juniors may not be able to read, or may not have English as a first language and will probably not be familiar with the obscure terminology we use to describe geographic features.
When they start on the white course the don't need control descriptions - just follow the path till they reach a control, which should set them in the direction of the next one. The only thing they should be checking is the control code - and that is in column B. However, they are starting to get used to the method of presentation and might start to learn the symbols for road, path and junction.
You're equating novices with juniors; novice adults are unlikely to start on the white (or even yellow) course and I suspect will find text easier to follow at first (though I agree about obscure terminology).
- roadrunner
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Re: Where is everyone?
roadrunner wrote:You're equating novices with juniors; novice adults are unlikely to start on the white (or even yellow) course and I suspect will find text easier to follow at first (though I agree about obscure terminology).
When I (re-)started orienteering in my 30s (in 2004), I went straight for Light Green, even though it had been nearly 20 years since I'd got lost on Oranges at school. Descriptions were textual and it was a couple of years before I hit against symbols. I remember having to cram to learn all likely East Anglian descriptions before possibly the only WRE that WAOC ever held (at Rowney Warren and it rained, didn't have a control description holder and the descriptions weren't waterproof). Nowadays it is conventional for Orange and above to have symbols. Of course, now that I'm older I find symbols much easier to read at speed than small text.
- sborrill
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Re: Where is everyone?
I put symbols and text on W,Y,O, LG if I can. Also LO if it's on.
The issue is that text takes up far more space and so can get quite cramped for longer courses.
I'd be happy to go to pictorial only. I realise survivorship bias, but it wasn't that difficult to learn them as a newcomer - this is a much lower barrier to overcome than many of the others.
Nowadays, I don't even both with loose descriptions, except for occasionally sprints. Even urbans with "trap" controls, can usually make do with the CDs that must be printed on the map. (although I did do one event - but only one - where they didn't print on the map..naughty!)
The issue is that text takes up far more space and so can get quite cramped for longer courses.
I'd be happy to go to pictorial only. I realise survivorship bias, but it wasn't that difficult to learn them as a newcomer - this is a much lower barrier to overcome than many of the others.
Nowadays, I don't even both with loose descriptions, except for occasionally sprints. Even urbans with "trap" controls, can usually make do with the CDs that must be printed on the map. (although I did do one event - but only one - where they didn't print on the map..naughty!)
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Where is everyone?
roadrunner wrote:pete.owens wrote:The scots have it right in giving pictorial descriptions for everybody; giving youngsters text is not helping. Very young juniors may not be able to read, or may not have English as a first language and will probably not be familiar with the obscure terminology we use to describe geographic features.
When they start on the white course the don't need control descriptions - just follow the path till they reach a control, which should set them in the direction of the next one. The only thing they should be checking is the control code - and that is in column B. However, they are starting to get used to the method of presentation and might start to learn the symbols for road, path and junction.
You're equating novices with juniors; novice adults are unlikely to start on the white (or even yellow) course
The recommended adult novice course is orange which I covered in the bit of my post you cropped!
Many of the same issues apply for adult newcomers. The obscure terminology is likely to be confusing (even more so for technical controls), the small print is difficult to read and it distracts from what is still the most the important feature on an orange course: checking the control code.
Also most of a control description is vastly more intuitive as symbols than text:
Column C (which of) - it is much easier to interpret an arrow that the word "northwestern".
Column D (the feature) - is probably the least important part - it is the thing at the centre of the circle on the map - ie the one part of the CD that is giving no additional information.
Column E (appearance) - is rarely used, and makes for very verbose text when it is.
Column F (size) - is much simpler as a simple digit in a box inline
Column G (which part) - is probably the most important - particularly in sprints. Again the symbols for part, side, edge, tip, end, upper or lower parts are more intuitive than the text equivalents.
Is reading
"Northwestern depression, marshy, southwest part"
in tiny print really helping people?
- pete.owens
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Re: Where is everyone?
It's helpful to have a concrete example.
I do agree that some of our terms like 'depression' and 're-entrant' could be better modernised eg 'hole' and 'small valley'.
That might be seen as heresy or dumbing down, and then orienteers will carry on calling a hole a depression anyway.
So using the example the complete beginner would have to intuitively know what a black U was.
Maybe they could look at the map key and look for a black U. None would be found. Perhaps they can find a brown U? and if really clever figure out that this is probably what the black U is, but wait.. the key will say 'depression'!
I think we've had all these discussions before. One of the previous points was that control descriptions were codified in the era of black and white printing. Now colour printing is possible control descriptions could at least use the same symbols as the map rather than offering two separate symbols for the same thing.
That might be something IOF looks at, since the requirements for international racing end up affecting a casual orienteer who intends to go no further than a few country parks. But such development issues seem to have a low priority beyond here. It's enough to cause a depression!
I do agree that some of our terms like 'depression' and 're-entrant' could be better modernised eg 'hole' and 'small valley'.
That might be seen as heresy or dumbing down, and then orienteers will carry on calling a hole a depression anyway.
So using the example the complete beginner would have to intuitively know what a black U was.
Maybe they could look at the map key and look for a black U. None would be found. Perhaps they can find a brown U? and if really clever figure out that this is probably what the black U is, but wait.. the key will say 'depression'!
I think we've had all these discussions before. One of the previous points was that control descriptions were codified in the era of black and white printing. Now colour printing is possible control descriptions could at least use the same symbols as the map rather than offering two separate symbols for the same thing.
That might be something IOF looks at, since the requirements for international racing end up affecting a casual orienteer who intends to go no further than a few country parks. But such development issues seem to have a low priority beyond here. It's enough to cause a depression!
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