I'm interested in folks thoughts about one of the rule changes being introduced to the Veteran Home International competition this year.
Basically (as well as some other changes) it has been agreed to add in an additional M/W 65 (to make 2 of each sex for that age class) and a single M/W 70 to the competition. To keep the total numbers divisible by 3 (for the relays) it has been agreed to drop M/W 35s completely (there was only 1 of each sex anyway) and reduce M/W 40s from 2 to 1.
My understanding was that the main reason for this particular change was an aging demographic of orienteers in general (fair enough), but also a lack of M/W 35s & 40s who regularly complete and could be selected for Wales & Ireland.
My personal views (as a selector for Scotland, and 1st year M45 who has run in the VHIs 8 times) are below.……
I for one think that part of this rule change is a massive mistake. I’m OK with adding in M/W 65s, 70s, 75s etc. but excluding all M/W 35s and 1 M/W 40 flies in the face of everything that BOF (and associations/clubs) are trying to do to keep the post M/W 21 young adult demographic in the sport.
It is fair enough if there are a lack of competitors in a particular age class and/or Country, but I am not sure how this rule change solves the problem. In 5 years’ time when the lack of 35s/40s becomes a lack of 40s/45s is this age class going to be dropped as well? What message is this sending to young adult orienteers when M/W 35 is the only age class from M/W 14 to M/W 70 where you can’t represent your country at a home nations competition?
As the issue of a lack of competitors only really affects 2 nations (the BOF rankings give you a good indicator of the number of people competing regularly in these age classes for these associations) might it be time to have a two tiered competition (like the CompassSport Cup/Trophy) or have the 4 nations compete against each other with less competitors (e.g. 24), but then England & Scotland complete against themselves with more (e.g. 27). What about making it so that not everyone who competes has to score? This way if a nation fields an incomplete team then it isn’t penalised too much.
I am sure that there are many other ways to make the competition “fairer”, but excluding all M/W 35s and reducing M/W 40s to 1 doesn’t seem the right way to go.
VHI rule changes 2024
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VHI rule changes 2024
Run 'in' forests, run
- forest grump
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
My understanding is that the team sizes had to be kept the same too so that adding new classes at one end means that something has to give elsewhere.
There's also the issue that, since the SHI teams can have 6 senior men and women, there are opportunities for M35s and even M40s to get international "caps" here, especially in Wales and Ireland.
The data below show numbers of ranked runners in each 35+ age class a couple of years ago and shows why, e.g. the current 2 x M40 and 1 x M65 are not representative
M35 173 .. W35 94
M40 212 .. W40 122
M45 279 .. W45 168
M50 383 .. W50 224
M55 469 .. W55 263
M60 417 .. W60 211
M65 358 .. W65 164
M70 337 .. W70 129
M75 188 .. W75 72
M80 67 ... W80 18
M85 23 ... W85 6
M90 1 ..... W90 1
There's also the issue that, since the SHI teams can have 6 senior men and women, there are opportunities for M35s and even M40s to get international "caps" here, especially in Wales and Ireland.
The data below show numbers of ranked runners in each 35+ age class a couple of years ago and shows why, e.g. the current 2 x M40 and 1 x M65 are not representative
M35 173 .. W35 94
M40 212 .. W40 122
M45 279 .. W45 168
M50 383 .. W50 224
M55 469 .. W55 263
M60 417 .. W60 211
M65 358 .. W65 164
M70 337 .. W70 129
M75 188 .. W75 72
M80 67 ... W80 18
M85 23 ... W85 6
M90 1 ..... W90 1
- DJM
- diehard
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
Perhaps add 35+ / 40+ categories into SHI, where the numbers are lower than in VHI ?
Need to keep to a multiple of 3 for relays ?
It seems to make sense to me that the Home Internationals should reflect the demographics in the sport, but I agree that we need to do all we can to encourage more into the sport at the lower end of the age spectrum.
Need to keep to a multiple of 3 for relays ?
It seems to make sense to me that the Home Internationals should reflect the demographics in the sport, but I agree that we need to do all we can to encourage more into the sport at the lower end of the age spectrum.
curro ergo sum
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King Penguin - addict
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
Many of the teams already fill the SHI squad with M/W35s and 40s.... Would make it pretty hard to get full teams without them available as 21s
- gg
- diehard
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
I agree it's shame for the 35s/40s and that it will deter some from competing... an England cap is a great incentive especially for those who never had a chance of representing GB. It's a bit like the CompassSport Cup debate... should you have class sizes relative to the number of active orienteers or relative to your aspirations? I tend to go with the latter. We relly do need to encourage juniors and young men/women. If clubs/countries want to be competitive they should have to nurture these age groups.
But I was disappointed not to be able to continue my England "career" once I was 70... and I fear the change has come a little late for me.
But I was disappointed not to be able to continue my England "career" once I was 70... and I fear the change has come a little late for me.
- yted
- light green
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
King Penguin wrote:Perhaps add 35+ / 40+ categories into SHI
This was briefly discussed but all the home nations already find it hard to field complete teams without further prescription. As gg says, the best 35's and 40's make it onto the team as it is.
There's no appetite to increase team sizes. Finding accommodation is hard enough already.
On balance, I am personally happy with the VHI rule changes, but do get forest grump's point. Hopefully 35's and 40's can make a comeback at some point in the future when the numbers are back up again. In the meantime maximising opportunities for 20's and 21's should be the priority.
yted wrote:But I was disappointed not to be able to continue my England "career" once I was 70... and I fear the change has come a little late for me.
But just in time for me which may influence my opinion to some degree...
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Homer - diehard
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
New rules linked from here: https://orienteeringengland.org.uk/home-internationals/
I have mixed feelings about the loss of 35s but have also argued (with insight) that the top 35s of every nation will earn/deserve their place in their SHI team.
For me, bitd, selection for England as a 35 in the SHI was a significant motivator for five years and then extending into the VHI, selection for the VHI (and Interland) was the goal for the year: that and racing well at the VHI itself, both indiv and relay.
In 2000 the Elite Competitions Steering Group (remember them?) wrested control of the SHI format and rules, kicked out the 35s (team was 3x19s, 5x21s and 4x35s, but the relay format was ill thought out) and it's been 3x20s and 6x21s(open) ever since. A few years later 35s were introduced into the VHI. But I always felt they really didn't belong there with all the old timers. 35s were only pulled into the World Vets/Masters for commercial reasons.
I have mixed feelings about the loss of 35s but have also argued (with insight) that the top 35s of every nation will earn/deserve their place in their SHI team.
For me, bitd, selection for England as a 35 in the SHI was a significant motivator for five years and then extending into the VHI, selection for the VHI (and Interland) was the goal for the year: that and racing well at the VHI itself, both indiv and relay.
In 2000 the Elite Competitions Steering Group (remember them?) wrested control of the SHI format and rules, kicked out the 35s (team was 3x19s, 5x21s and 4x35s, but the relay format was ill thought out) and it's been 3x20s and 6x21s(open) ever since. A few years later 35s were introduced into the VHI. But I always felt they really didn't belong there with all the old timers. 35s were only pulled into the World Vets/Masters for commercial reasons.
- Exocet
- string
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
Heretical question - how important a competition are the HIs actually and what role do they play in the calendar? How many people would miss them if they didn't exist, beyond a dedicated few?
If "nations often struggle to field full teams" then it doesn't feel like a totally unreasonable question to ask, though please flame away at me.
Disclaimer:
- I'm not originally from round here so may fail to appreciate the proper historical weight
- I'm theoretically eligible for England but unlikely to ever be good enough to be called up
If "nations often struggle to field full teams" then it doesn't feel like a totally unreasonable question to ask, though please flame away at me.
Disclaimer:
- I'm not originally from round here so may fail to appreciate the proper historical weight
- I'm theoretically eligible for England but unlikely to ever be good enough to be called up
- Arnold
- diehard
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
Fair question.
I think the main purpose of the HI's is to give experience of international competition. This is most important for juniors, but also for seniors yet to break into the GBR team. Therefore the JHI and SHI are worthwhile competitions. The argument for the VHI is less clear but, for most veterans, is the only chance to represent their country.
I don't think any of the Home Nations have a problem fielding full teams for the JHI. It's only Wales and Ireland that struggle for SHI and VHI, so an issue of imbalance of numbers rather than anything else. Perhaps there is a case for 2 separate competitions at SHI and VHI: England v Scotland and Wales v Ireland (with smaller teams)? That's effectively what the competition is now anyway...
I think the main purpose of the HI's is to give experience of international competition. This is most important for juniors, but also for seniors yet to break into the GBR team. Therefore the JHI and SHI are worthwhile competitions. The argument for the VHI is less clear but, for most veterans, is the only chance to represent their country.
I don't think any of the Home Nations have a problem fielding full teams for the JHI. It's only Wales and Ireland that struggle for SHI and VHI, so an issue of imbalance of numbers rather than anything else. Perhaps there is a case for 2 separate competitions at SHI and VHI: England v Scotland and Wales v Ireland (with smaller teams)? That's effectively what the competition is now anyway...
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Homer - diehard
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
I think there is already a trophy for the winner between Wales and Ireland, at least in the VHI.
curro ergo sum
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King Penguin - addict
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
King Penguin wrote:I think there is already a trophy for the winner between Wales and Ireland, at least in the VHI.
There is, but it's often a case of which country can field the biggest team that decides the result. It would perhaps be a fairer competition if Wales and Ireland had smaller teams. However that's a decision for them, rather than be dictated to by the bigger nations.
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Homer - diehard
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
From a different (personal, elite) perspective, the SHI weekend offers a long distance race on 1:15k map, and an elite relay - both things in short supply in the domestic calendar.
- gg
- diehard
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
To add, based on the 2023 SHI and VHI:Homer wrote:I don't think any of the Home Nations have a problem fielding full teams for the JHI. It's only Wales and Ireland that struggle for SHI and VHI, so an issue of imbalance of numbers rather than anything else. Perhaps there is a case for 2 separate competitions at SHI and VHI: England v Scotland and Wales v Ireland (with smaller teams)? That's effectively what the competition is now anyway...
All the VHI teams were complete (24 strong) and this allowed 4 relay teams in each MWM and WMW classes (with 3 to count) on the Sunday.
At the SHI in South Wales, the Ireland team was short of W20s but otherwise scored across the board. This lack meant that Ireland, after going ahead of Wales in the individual, scored null points in the Women's relay (each relay team must have a 20 in). That and mispunching cost them "The Celtic Cup - Awarded to either Wales or Ireland, whichever gains the greater combined points total".
The better of Ireland & Wales in the JHI wins the Judith Wingham Trophy, a platter presented in memory of the multiple JK and British Champion (age group) who worked tirelessly for decades for all the Home Internationals (as Secretary HIC and in other support).
In the VHI, as mentioned above, Ireland & Wales compete for the Stonewall Trophy. It is in fact a model of a stone wall with temporary stile bridging it, 'O' style.
- Exocet
- string
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
In answer to the question about whether the HI's are worth the trouble, I would say they are one of the perks of living on these complicated islands of ours. When I was a kid, my Dad got picked for the cross-country VHI, and I was so proud of him. Now I'm a vet myself, and getting my Ireland orienteering top represented a target for me for several years, and gave me a lot of pleasure when I finally got it. I know others who have VHI caps in touch-rugby and hockey. Its all just a bit of fun, but it makes for a great weekend, and getting picked provides a motivation for some to keep pushing themselves into later life.
A friend of mine moved to Switzerland a few years ago. I asked him if they had any equivalent of HIs over there, and seemingly they don't. As an adult, the only way to earn a Swiss vest is to get into the WOC team. Which seems a pity.
A friend of mine moved to Switzerland a few years ago. I asked him if they had any equivalent of HIs over there, and seemingly they don't. As an adult, the only way to earn a Swiss vest is to get into the WOC team. Which seems a pity.
- Norni
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Re: VHI rule changes 2024
My recollection, which may be faulty, is that the SHIs were originally felt necessary because at that time (late 70s / early 80s?) there was very little chance for the international squad / team to get serious competition building up to WOC. WOC only happened every 2 years, there were no World Cups (or EOC?), and most squad members were based in the UK.
I tend to agree with Arnold that their time has passed (and that this view will be unpopular with some!). Juniors still have JIRCs. Seniors have plenty of opportunities, in multiple international competitions, and in Scandinavia. For Veterans it is to some extent a permanent opportunity: the top competitors at 40 tend to go on to be the top at 45, 50, etc, so although it can for an aspiration for some it is a routine repeating call-up for many others.
The events are often expensive and tricky to host for regions. Without them there probably wouldn't be a need for the EOC at all (ignoring Interland ). And EOC is possibly the main reason many England regions feel forced to maintain a per-capita membership fee, rather than collecting funds solely via participation levies (because EOC raises a per-capita charge on them).
I tend to agree with Arnold that their time has passed (and that this view will be unpopular with some!). Juniors still have JIRCs. Seniors have plenty of opportunities, in multiple international competitions, and in Scandinavia. For Veterans it is to some extent a permanent opportunity: the top competitors at 40 tend to go on to be the top at 45, 50, etc, so although it can for an aspiration for some it is a routine repeating call-up for many others.
The events are often expensive and tricky to host for regions. Without them there probably wouldn't be a need for the EOC at all (ignoring Interland ). And EOC is possibly the main reason many England regions feel forced to maintain a per-capita membership fee, rather than collecting funds solely via participation levies (because EOC raises a per-capita charge on them).
- Snail
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