With the advent of newer entry systems many clubs are offering the choice of a specific start time at pre entry (eg 10:01). I find this super valuable because it allows me to plan my day quite precisely - particularly helpful as I will either need to rent a car (by the hour) or take a train to many races, so say a 30 minute difference in start times can add a fair bit of uncertainty and potentially cost.
Lately though quite a few events seem to be going the other way again, not allowing the choice of specific start times but either half hour slots or E/M/L as in the old days.
I'm trying to understand why events do that, as it just removes convenience for competitors - OK it's not a major issue but why make it harder than it needs to be? The only reason I can think of is a worry about cheating by colluding with a friend to pick two start times close together (given you can't see what start times others have picked) - but does that / would that really happen??
Case in point, for the JK Sprint I can only pick EML but would like to do a day trip from London on the train. If I pick L that could potentially be any time between 1pm and 3:30pm, meaning I can't buy a cheaper advance ticket, or have to buy one with a pretty big 'safety margin'.
Start times
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Re: Start times
I agree with you on the E/M/L choice - when you put in your entry you have no idea what it will become when start times are published . I don’t see why even major events can’t allow us to pick a specific start block (reserving the right to alter it if rules - EDIT: or the exigencies of organising a major event - demand it).
I’m happy with start blocks (ideally 15 minutes) as they do minimise queueing, and realistically if you turn up a few minutes before or after your block, you aren’t going to be turned away (I’m struggling to remember any time when I’ve even been asked which block I’m on, certainly since COVID restrictions eased).
I’m happy with start blocks (ideally 15 minutes) as they do minimise queueing, and realistically if you turn up a few minutes before or after your block, you aren’t going to be turned away (I’m struggling to remember any time when I’ve even been asked which block I’m on, certainly since COVID restrictions eased).
Last edited by ricardito on Mon Jan 22, 2024 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- ricardito
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Re: Start times
Double edged sword though, if you miss your start time due to delay en-route, you may have to wait a while for the next one, and then miss your train home!
Anyway, this topic allows me to plug the Sherburn-in-Elmet urban on Sun 17th March, where we have gone for afternoon start times (14:30-16:00) for a change, which allows much better access by train from 2 different routes, and a £2 refund at registration if arriving by public transport. Brand new map and area.
Initial details here: https://www.aire.org.uk/events/sherburn-2024-03-17 and entries will open on 7th Feb hopefully (I think with specific start times, but not 100% on that)
Anyway, this topic allows me to plug the Sherburn-in-Elmet urban on Sun 17th March, where we have gone for afternoon start times (14:30-16:00) for a change, which allows much better access by train from 2 different routes, and a £2 refund at registration if arriving by public transport. Brand new map and area.
Initial details here: https://www.aire.org.uk/events/sherburn-2024-03-17 and entries will open on 7th Feb hopefully (I think with specific start times, but not 100% on that)
- Len
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Re: Start times
Major events, e.g. JK sprint, require seeding and club separation etc.
So any of this level should not allow start times to be chosen - this should include JK events, British Championships and I believe Area Champs.
You can offer blocks and usually there is enough flexibility in that to keep everyone (mostly) happy as much as possible.
For any event with non-allocated start times (i.e. punching start events), I don't see the point personally in allowing someone to choose a specific start time, because I've yet to go to an event of that level where the chosen start times are stuck too.
Much bigger issue than start times is the fact that because clubs are offering online entry for most events, they are then ceasing all entry on the day facility, which is a little silly.
So any of this level should not allow start times to be chosen - this should include JK events, British Championships and I believe Area Champs.
You can offer blocks and usually there is enough flexibility in that to keep everyone (mostly) happy as much as possible.
For any event with non-allocated start times (i.e. punching start events), I don't see the point personally in allowing someone to choose a specific start time, because I've yet to go to an event of that level where the chosen start times are stuck too.
Much bigger issue than start times is the fact that because clubs are offering online entry for most events, they are then ceasing all entry on the day facility, which is a little silly.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Start times
rf_fozzy wrote:Much bigger issue than start times is the fact that because clubs are offering online entry for most events, they are then ceasing all entry on the day facility, which is a little silly.
Fabian, SI Entries and Racesignup all allow organisers to accept and manage online EOD.
We built a club entry system so you don't have to! racesignup.co.uk
- oo_wrong_way
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Re: Start times
oo_wrong_way wrote:rf_fozzy wrote:Much bigger issue than start times is the fact that because clubs are offering online entry for most events, they are then ceasing all entry on the day facility, which is a little silly.
Fabian, SI Entries and Racesignup all allow organisers to accept and manage online EOD.
I'm aware.
I still overall think a piece of paper and sticking them manually in (given it's at most for a regional ~20 people), but allowing people to EOD online at the event works too.
But there are clubs that, even for their *local* events are not doing EOD at all. Full stop end of story.
And to me that's self-defeating for the the sport. And assumes that everyone can always know whether or not they can go to events.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Start times
rf_fozzy wrote:I still overall think a piece of paper and sticking them manually in (given it's at most for a regional ~20 people), but allowing people to EOD online at the event works too.
But there are clubs that, even for their *local* events are not doing EOD at all. Full stop end of story.
And to me that's self-defeating for the the sport. And assumes that everyone can always know whether or not they can go to events.
Spot on. Here in the New Forest we are struggling with restrictions, particularly to parking, mean that events are full well before we order maps - so no EOD but not because we don't want to offer it!
We built a club entry system so you don't have to! racesignup.co.uk
- oo_wrong_way
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Re: Start times
It is important to offer EOD at least at level C/D events for newcomers/novices who don't wish to commit/don't understand the entry systems. And it is a chance for the registration team to give advice/encourage them to join etc. With maybe 50 entrants on a course with a 2 hour start window there is no point allocating blocks or times which the start team quite rightly then ignore.
Without this the sport is dying.
Without this the sport is dying.
- MJG
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Re: Start times
Actually we don't find this. We still get plenty of non members even with pre-entry only, though we normally do allow entry up until the night before the event. We do use racesignup which has good customisable questions which is helpful to make it clearer to the newcomer. The key thing is to do some publicity, not necessarily at every event, which generates a base of people interested even if they can't make the first event or every event.
Also with pre-entry newcomers can be pushed information via email before the event to help them on the day, whereas they might not read the online details or the details may not be clear enough. I also have a hunch pre-entry makes it more likely for people to turn up if the weather is a bit ropey ... because people have spent their money.
With no entry on the day there is more volunteer time available for coaching newcomers, and there is no uncertainty about the number of maps needed or numbers of newcomers turning up, which has been stressful in the past.
I realise EOD vs online is a trade off and there are advantages to EOD too.
The sport is in decline / ageing but you can't realistically pin it on one factor - it is multi-factor. IMHO the sport can grow again if clubs and regions are prepared to change and do new things, particularly focus more on publicity, coaching/support for newcomers, make the sport more welcoming, aid transport for those with limited or no access to cars, make changes to aid volunteering, and change at the course and competition structure to encourage more casual orienteers who might lack the fitness or technical skills to enjoy the typical orienteering event.
That's a big list....
Also with pre-entry newcomers can be pushed information via email before the event to help them on the day, whereas they might not read the online details or the details may not be clear enough. I also have a hunch pre-entry makes it more likely for people to turn up if the weather is a bit ropey ... because people have spent their money.
With no entry on the day there is more volunteer time available for coaching newcomers, and there is no uncertainty about the number of maps needed or numbers of newcomers turning up, which has been stressful in the past.
I realise EOD vs online is a trade off and there are advantages to EOD too.
The sport is in decline / ageing but you can't realistically pin it on one factor - it is multi-factor. IMHO the sport can grow again if clubs and regions are prepared to change and do new things, particularly focus more on publicity, coaching/support for newcomers, make the sport more welcoming, aid transport for those with limited or no access to cars, make changes to aid volunteering, and change at the course and competition structure to encourage more casual orienteers who might lack the fitness or technical skills to enjoy the typical orienteering event.
That's a big list....
- SeanC
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Re: Start times
Back to the original subject.
LOC seem to have completely ignored start times for the event at Loughrigg on Sunday.
There was no choice of E/M/L at the point of entry, so they have no idea when people will turn up at the start. The start runs from 1030 to 1230 and there are 113 entries on the Brown course...
I can't see any potential issue there
What's the best time to turn up to avoid a potential 1 hour plus wait (on a Lakeland fell in February)
LOC seem to have completely ignored start times for the event at Loughrigg on Sunday.
There was no choice of E/M/L at the point of entry, so they have no idea when people will turn up at the start. The start runs from 1030 to 1230 and there are 113 entries on the Brown course...
I can't see any potential issue there
What's the best time to turn up to avoid a potential 1 hour plus wait (on a Lakeland fell in February)
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Homer - diehard
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Re: Start times
Homer wrote:What's the best time to turn up to avoid a potential 1 hour plus wait (on a Lakeland fell in February)
In the middle of the heavy shower.
- NeilC
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Re: Start times
Homer wrote:LOC seem to have completely ignored start times for the event at Loughrigg on Sunday.
There was no choice of E/M/L at the point of entry, so they have no idea when people will turn up at the start. The start runs from 1030 to 1230 and there are 113 entries on the Brown course...
Pretty standard for a level C regional event. Not so long ago it would have been EOD only at Cumbrian Gallopen events - so turn up in good time if you want to make sure there are maps for your course. I guess numbers will be boosted by folk coming up the night champs on Saturday.
- pete.owens
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Re: Start times
Not so long ago it would have been EOD only at Cumbrian Gallopen events - so turn up in good time if you want to make sure there are maps for your course.
But now we can do much better than that. Everyone pre-entered is guaranteed a map, so why not let them choose a start block and at least try and spread everyone out.
- SJC
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Re: Start times
If you like that sort of inflexibility then there are plenty level B national events. I much prefer the flexibility of just turning up and heading for the start without the stress of trying to arrive at a particular point by a deadline.
And there is all the administrative effort that goes into producing start lists, carting clocks up onto the fell and having some poor volunteer spend the morning calling out names from a clipboard.
And there is all the administrative effort that goes into producing start lists, carting clocks up onto the fell and having some poor volunteer spend the morning calling out names from a clipboard.
- pete.owens
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Re: Start times
113 people on the brown course. That's very encouraging.
I guess this event is unusual in that it's a level C, but also the day after the British Nights and a UKOL event so a higher attendance than normal. From the final details I've just looked up it looks like the organisers didn't anticipate such a high turnout and maybe might have done something different otherwise?
But looking at the met office forecast, there is only a 10-20% chance of rain in Ambleside, though I realise an extra 0 needs to be added onto these numbers for the Lake District
There is no orienteering on Sunday in the South East and I'd happily swap a day tidying up the shed for a morning on Loughrigg !
I guess this event is unusual in that it's a level C, but also the day after the British Nights and a UKOL event so a higher attendance than normal. From the final details I've just looked up it looks like the organisers didn't anticipate such a high turnout and maybe might have done something different otherwise?
But looking at the met office forecast, there is only a 10-20% chance of rain in Ambleside, though I realise an extra 0 needs to be added onto these numbers for the Lake District
There is no orienteering on Sunday in the South East and I'd happily swap a day tidying up the shed for a morning on Loughrigg !
- SeanC
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