Again, something that maybe should be in the junior forum, but needs must. Could somebody put a note in the junior forum drawing attention to this?
I've just received an email via my regional rep on the BOF Rules committee. Basically, a concern has been expressed that National/JK/BOC course distances for 16+s (and M14) have been overshortened this year, and they need lengthening a bit, so that there is a progression in length, with national clearly differentiated from regional.
Part 1 of my question then: Is this the case? What do M/W16+s on this forum think? I know there have been rumblings, but would be interested in thoughts. I've deliberately not put a poll up at present, as there may well be various shades of views (e.g. one age class fine, another too short etc. etc.).
Part 2. Along with the proposal to lengthen some of these courses again, is some adjusting of B and S classes. So, although I know most juniors here compete in the A/L/E classes - is there actually a need for age classes at B/S? Or could the JM/JW or colour classes be used instead, with the age classes built on to them, given that most of those running B classes will already be familiar with the JM/JW system from regional events. E.g.:
Combination A = JM1, JW1
Combination B = M10, W10, JM2, JW2
Combination C = M12, W12, JM3, JW3
Combination D = W14, JW4
Combination E = M14, JM4
Combination F = W16, JW5S
Combination G = JM5S
Combination H = M16, JM5M
Combination I = W18, JW5L
Combination J = M18, JM5L
Combination K = W20
Combination L = M20
Some of the combinations would probably go together on the same course, some would go with adult classes, so we're not talking 12 different courses! However, I was struck at the O-ringen and elsewhere at the simplicity of junior classes: just one class per age, with all others running 'junior' courses at different technical levels (U1, U2 etc.).
Thoughts?
Junior course lengths
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I must say at the JK the courses were shorter than I'd expect for an event of that standard, on W16A (I don't know about other courses) but surely this was due to the technicality of the terrain. However at the British we had 5km which surely is fine for W16 over that sort of terrain. I did notice in general that courses were shorter this year, but personally I was quite happy with the length and wouldn't want them much longer.
I was just wondering, at most badge events I've been to, JM5S has been the same as JW5S. Above you've got it as a separate conbination. Wasn't that the point of intoducing it for boys, to give a shorter alternative but the same technical standard? The girls didn't get it because ours was short enough.
I was just wondering, at most badge events I've been to, JM5S has been the same as JW5S. Above you've got it as a separate conbination. Wasn't that the point of intoducing it for boys, to give a shorter alternative but the same technical standard? The girls didn't get it because ours was short enough.
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helen - junior moderator
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helen wrote:I was just wondering, at most badge events I've been to, JM5S has been the same as JW5S. Above you've got it as a separate conbination. Wasn't that the point of intoducing it for boys, to give a shorter alternative but the same technical standard? The girls didn't get it because ours was short enough.
Yes it was the point. Actually, it shouldn't be 'most' regional events, but 'all' regional events - that was the way the combinations were designed for regional events. Looking again, I think combinations F and G would normally be one of those sets that would go together on the same course. I banged it out like that fairly quickly, and didn't spot that unnecessary split.
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awk - god
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Andrew, in answer to your second question:
B/S courses aren't run as much as A/L/E courses, especially in the older classes i.e. 18s but they are still used by juniors
Coaches tend to use them (B/S) as a transitional phase between A/L/E classes
For example:
A 2nd year M14 will run an A course
The year after that, when this particular M14 has become a 1st year M16, he will run M16B, because the combination is such that M14As and M16Bs run the same course, because the length and difficulty to which they are planned is the same
During this year the coach will train the orienteer to the ability such that the year after that, when the orienteer is a 2nd year M16, he will be able to run M16A, and the cycle repeats itself over the two-year period throughout being a junior
However, for some people, they decide to run competitive in a B or S course, for example myself, partly because they know what thier own personal strengths are, i.e. focusing more on splint/short discipline rather than classic.
Personally I found that the length for M18S at the JK (about 4k with around 200m climb) was good because although not being full sprint length it gave the feeling of a short or sprint race, combined with the technicality of the terrain
Some people will say that 4k for an M18 is too short, but personally I feel it to be about right for the personal goals and strengths which I have
One more point: at a C1 event (ie the JK) the typical course length for M18S was 4k with 200m climb. At a C3 event (ie Croeso 2004) the course lengths for M18S range from 5k with 215m climb to 6.4k with 250m climb. Being that at the C1 event you would generally expect the courses to be longer than at a C3 event, how does this one work out? The only possible explanations I can give is of the (not vast) difference in the technicality of the terrain, and that for Croeso the M18S class is twinned with M16A in terms of course combination (as suggested above because of the similarity in difficulty and length), as apposed to the JK where M18S was twinned with M70L, W18L, W55L, W20S and W35S, none of which (apart from W18L, although not being an M class) bear any similarity in terms of junior comparison.
B/S courses aren't run as much as A/L/E courses, especially in the older classes i.e. 18s but they are still used by juniors
Coaches tend to use them (B/S) as a transitional phase between A/L/E classes
For example:
A 2nd year M14 will run an A course
The year after that, when this particular M14 has become a 1st year M16, he will run M16B, because the combination is such that M14As and M16Bs run the same course, because the length and difficulty to which they are planned is the same
During this year the coach will train the orienteer to the ability such that the year after that, when the orienteer is a 2nd year M16, he will be able to run M16A, and the cycle repeats itself over the two-year period throughout being a junior
However, for some people, they decide to run competitive in a B or S course, for example myself, partly because they know what thier own personal strengths are, i.e. focusing more on splint/short discipline rather than classic.
Personally I found that the length for M18S at the JK (about 4k with around 200m climb) was good because although not being full sprint length it gave the feeling of a short or sprint race, combined with the technicality of the terrain
Some people will say that 4k for an M18 is too short, but personally I feel it to be about right for the personal goals and strengths which I have
One more point: at a C1 event (ie the JK) the typical course length for M18S was 4k with 200m climb. At a C3 event (ie Croeso 2004) the course lengths for M18S range from 5k with 215m climb to 6.4k with 250m climb. Being that at the C1 event you would generally expect the courses to be longer than at a C3 event, how does this one work out? The only possible explanations I can give is of the (not vast) difference in the technicality of the terrain, and that for Croeso the M18S class is twinned with M16A in terms of course combination (as suggested above because of the similarity in difficulty and length), as apposed to the JK where M18S was twinned with M70L, W18L, W55L, W20S and W35S, none of which (apart from W18L, although not being an M class) bear any similarity in terms of junior comparison.
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Thanks for your thoughts Peter.
Does this mean you would prefer sticking to B/S classes, or having the JM/JW? As I read it, the latter would still (perhaps even better) enable what you're talking about - especially the transition, as an M18 not ready or wanting to run the full M18 distance has a choice between JM5M (running alongside M16s, many of whom will be less than a year younger if the M18 is a first year) or JM5S if you are after a genuinely short but technical race. However, you might be seeing things differently.
Any other views, please?
On the use of JM5S - I may be completely wrong, but would love to see the middle distance race for M and/or W20E at the JK using the same course as the JM/JW5S if the JM/JW system were used: it would underline the fact that this class is about providing a genuine shorter distance race, not a 'B' class. (I really enjoyed the O-ringen, where running H45K I was in the same race as ex World no. 1 Kent Olsson - I wonder if we'll ever see that attitude in Britain?)
Does this mean you would prefer sticking to B/S classes, or having the JM/JW? As I read it, the latter would still (perhaps even better) enable what you're talking about - especially the transition, as an M18 not ready or wanting to run the full M18 distance has a choice between JM5M (running alongside M16s, many of whom will be less than a year younger if the M18 is a first year) or JM5S if you are after a genuinely short but technical race. However, you might be seeing things differently.
Any other views, please?
On the use of JM5S - I may be completely wrong, but would love to see the middle distance race for M and/or W20E at the JK using the same course as the JM/JW5S if the JM/JW system were used: it would underline the fact that this class is about providing a genuine shorter distance race, not a 'B' class. (I really enjoyed the O-ringen, where running H45K I was in the same race as ex World no. 1 Kent Olsson - I wonder if we'll ever see that attitude in Britain?)
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awk - god
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Yeah for some people they will have that preference but personally I dont have any feelings either way, as to whether B/S classes are better than JM/JW
I'm set here so im not bothered, and I'm not using the transitional system at the moment
I'm set here so im not bothered, and I'm not using the transitional system at the moment
- Peter B
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G - I think that was me saying the planners got it wrong. There have been some problems with planners not using the guidelines correctly and underplanning JM5L, which hasn't helped perceptions. Hopefully all part of the learning curve.
Last edited by awk on Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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awk - god
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