We all know that our sport is dying a slow death. The numbers of M/W21's are massively down from my day (I remember the days of M21AL2, etc at JK). I really feel sorry for our youngsters as they try and establish themselves in the world today. Student loans to repay, house prices way out of reach, etc etc. No wonder so many drop out of the sport as they move up from the junior ranks.
Having just entered JK, BOC and Scottish 6 (surely 5?) Days before the cheap entry deadline I am reminded of the expense. Not many 20 somethings are willing/able to fork out the £100's required.
If we want to keep the M/W21's in the sport, we need to do something. My proposal is to increase the age cut-off for junior entries to 30 (or even 35 to keep in line with the existing age classes). Because there are now so few M/W21's this wouldn't make a massive difference to event income but, if needed, just add £1 to the (older) senior entry fee. I would be more than happy to effectively subsidise the M/W21's (as we already do for the juniors) if it helped guarantee the future of the sport.
What does anyone else think?
Junior entry fees for M/W21?
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
I wouldn't be against it personally, but I suspect your average 20 something might prefer to be labelled as something other than junior
But I think this is a marginal gain and not where the main problems lie. Personally I think a much bigger impact would be from:
- improving the transition from yellow/orange to light green/green at club level for juniors. Many clubs have lots of juniors doing yellow or orange, but relatively few make it onto TD4 courses at a proficient level. So that needs improving junior coaching at club level, or providing it a regional/sub regional level where clubs aren't able to provide it. Not always easy I suspect.
- Getting rid of the somewhat mad expectation that older juniors and M/W21s run really long courses at regional and national events. Courses only suitable for maybe 5% of the potential market. That I think is relatively easy - replace all those regional leagues with recommended/required courses for age classes with leagues where anyone can run any course.
Even with these changes, I'm sure many M/W 21s would drop out due to more intractable issues - such as people of this age more likely to have other/new priorities than sport. However many come back, and I think the sport can still thrive by improving publicity targeted at 30/40 something outdoory fit types, some of which might have dropped out in their 20s. That I think is also fairly easy.
But I think this is a marginal gain and not where the main problems lie. Personally I think a much bigger impact would be from:
- improving the transition from yellow/orange to light green/green at club level for juniors. Many clubs have lots of juniors doing yellow or orange, but relatively few make it onto TD4 courses at a proficient level. So that needs improving junior coaching at club level, or providing it a regional/sub regional level where clubs aren't able to provide it. Not always easy I suspect.
- Getting rid of the somewhat mad expectation that older juniors and M/W21s run really long courses at regional and national events. Courses only suitable for maybe 5% of the potential market. That I think is relatively easy - replace all those regional leagues with recommended/required courses for age classes with leagues where anyone can run any course.
Even with these changes, I'm sure many M/W 21s would drop out due to more intractable issues - such as people of this age more likely to have other/new priorities than sport. However many come back, and I think the sport can still thrive by improving publicity targeted at 30/40 something outdoory fit types, some of which might have dropped out in their 20s. That I think is also fairly easy.
- SeanC
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
SeanC wrote:- Getting rid of the somewhat mad expectation that older juniors and M/W21s run really long courses at regional and national events. Courses only suitable for maybe 5% of the potential market. That I think is relatively easy - replace all those regional leagues with recommended/required courses for age classes with leagues where anyone can run any course.
I second this notion. WHY do we have age classes AT ALL for regional (and national) events. Anyone should be able to run any course they like regardless of age, sex/gender or fitness. Just use courses and folk can do what they want. Remove meaningless leagues and all course/class allocations. Instantly you have a far more welcoming, relaxed approach to the event where folk aren't expected to run a particular distance or technical difficulty based on their age. As long as course distances etc. are published beforehand (see previous comments about BNOC) then folk know what they have signed up to when they enter. You could even do away with the pretty meaningless colour coded system and just have long/medium/short courses which are easy/intermediate/hard....So 9 in total.
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- forest grump
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
forest grump wrote:You could even do away with the pretty meaningless colour coded system and just have long/medium/short courses which are easy/intermediate/hard....So 9 in total.
Fantastic idea
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
I don't think the solution is either entry fees or junior transition.
There still seem to be many MW21s entering road and challenge events, where entry fees are typically £20-40, or even much more. And there aren't enough juniors in the sport to be the future, even if they were to all stay in.
The issue is that for about 30 years we have been failing to recruit people in their 20s and 30s. I don't pretend to have the solutions, by factors include:
There are now relatively few university clubs, which were previously an introduction to the sport for many. And with many juniors choosing a uni based on the existence of a good O club, those few clubs have a strong cohort of competent orienteers and so are perhaps less welcoming to novices.
We are generally rubbish at publicity (with a few notable exceptions). When was the last time you saw a mention of an upcoming orienteering event outside a fixture list / entry system?
The general move to pre-entry with little or no EOD is off-putting to newcomers. Even if someone finds an entry website there is often little information to explains which courses might be suitable.
And I agree that far fewer events should encourage entries primarily by age class. And they certainly shouldn't publish results by age class, so that a newcomer can find themselves in the results as the only person in a class called "Orange - Other"! For level C/D events, do we even need to show age class in the results at all?
There still seem to be many MW21s entering road and challenge events, where entry fees are typically £20-40, or even much more. And there aren't enough juniors in the sport to be the future, even if they were to all stay in.
The issue is that for about 30 years we have been failing to recruit people in their 20s and 30s. I don't pretend to have the solutions, by factors include:
There are now relatively few university clubs, which were previously an introduction to the sport for many. And with many juniors choosing a uni based on the existence of a good O club, those few clubs have a strong cohort of competent orienteers and so are perhaps less welcoming to novices.
We are generally rubbish at publicity (with a few notable exceptions). When was the last time you saw a mention of an upcoming orienteering event outside a fixture list / entry system?
The general move to pre-entry with little or no EOD is off-putting to newcomers. Even if someone finds an entry website there is often little information to explains which courses might be suitable.
And I agree that far fewer events should encourage entries primarily by age class. And they certainly shouldn't publish results by age class, so that a newcomer can find themselves in the results as the only person in a class called "Orange - Other"! For level C/D events, do we even need to show age class in the results at all?
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
Looking back to when I was young and far from being a good M21/35/40/45, the various leagues (more than nowadays especially at local level) encouraged me to go to more events rather than put me off... and I never won any in those days when I was the fourth best Steve in the club!
Agree that courses should be called what they are rather than by colour. Distance/climb/roughness of terrain/level of dificulty of navigation should be obvious from the course title ideally but might be a bit long eg
10km/400m/rough/tricky navigation.
10km/200m/mostly paths/medium difficulty.
Not very snappy!
But I'm not sure any of this is the real problem/solution. I don't think price is either (though the need for a car/lift for many/most events probably is) but would not object to some cross-subsidy.
(I suspect some would though - it was hard enough getting cheap runs for students).
I think younger people are busier; they work harder with less support from family and the state. Joining a club is an added burden as you're expected to help. Easier to pay a high some to some commerciall company to run through muddy field.
Maybe our target should be families with kids 8+ rather than those in their 20s? And doing more to keep the ones we get as they grow up (which is where the price subsidy might help I guess).
Agree that courses should be called what they are rather than by colour. Distance/climb/roughness of terrain/level of dificulty of navigation should be obvious from the course title ideally but might be a bit long eg
10km/400m/rough/tricky navigation.
10km/200m/mostly paths/medium difficulty.
Not very snappy!
But I'm not sure any of this is the real problem/solution. I don't think price is either (though the need for a car/lift for many/most events probably is) but would not object to some cross-subsidy.
(I suspect some would though - it was hard enough getting cheap runs for students).
I think younger people are busier; they work harder with less support from family and the state. Joining a club is an added burden as you're expected to help. Easier to pay a high some to some commerciall company to run through muddy field.
Maybe our target should be families with kids 8+ rather than those in their 20s? And doing more to keep the ones we get as they grow up (which is where the price subsidy might help I guess).
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
WHY do we have age classes AT ALL for regional (and national) events. Anyone should be able to run any course they like regardless of age, sex/gender or fitness. Just use courses and folk can do what they want. Remove meaningless leagues and all course/class allocations.
And there was I thinking that orienteering was a competitive sport. Clearly my mistake.
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
But can’t you compete against the people on your course? It’s certainly what I always do. I know what course those I want to race against usually do, I run that course.
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
At one stage we had an AGM motion that students paid junior fees, this seems to have been quietly ignored. Maybe it was voted out, but I doubt it.
But I'm not convinced this would make much difference - the offering needs to be more attractive: not "you're 34, so you need to run far too long a course against the elites, or in some tiny class with no competition".
Orienteering *is* a competitive sport, and there's nothing "competitive" about being an a class with people you have no hope of beating (or being beaten by).
I can't understand why anyone would abolish leagues. Some people do like them which is good. People like me just ignore them. How would abolition help?
Maybe it should, but the problem is when we have no idea who our target is, so we put on events trying to cover all possibilities "Orienteering is the perfect sport for all ages and abilities" , and then cover them all badly.
But I'm not convinced this would make much difference - the offering needs to be more attractive: not "you're 34, so you need to run far too long a course against the elites, or in some tiny class with no competition".
Orienteering *is* a competitive sport, and there's nothing "competitive" about being an a class with people you have no hope of beating (or being beaten by).
I can't understand why anyone would abolish leagues. Some people do like them which is good. People like me just ignore them. How would abolition help?
Maybe our target should be families with kids 8+
Maybe it should, but the problem is when we have no idea who our target is, so we put on events trying to cover all possibilities "Orienteering is the perfect sport for all ages and abilities" , and then cover them all badly.
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
forest grump wrote: WHY do we have age classes AT ALL for regional (and national) events.
There was an extremely good reason for this.
Its because the numbers are so big we have to divide people of similar ability between courses to keep a reasonable time window. 5-year gae groups do that, and even then we need courses like M21AL3 to cope with demand, as Homer pointed out.
Of course, that problem doesn't apply any more, so there's no point in continuing the structure designed to solve it.
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
Playing Devil's advocate, because I wouldn't abolish them myself, but
Because they suggest to people
* or too technical (for most 18-40 I don't think distance is the off-putting factor, it's difficulty)
Easy to ignore leagues once you understand they can be ignored.
graeme wrote: I can't understand why anyone would abolish leagues.
Because they suggest to people
graeme wrote:"you're 34, so you need to run far too long a course* against the elites, or in some tiny class with no competition".
* or too technical (for most 18-40 I don't think distance is the off-putting factor, it's difficulty)
Easy to ignore leagues once you understand they can be ignored.
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
There isn't a need to abolish leagues. But there is a need to address how league events are presented. It should be simple to say:
- we are putting on these courses (using colour or other descriptions, as above);
- and then (separately)f you want to take part in X league / championsips, then enter the course applicable to your age, which is ...
We could even adopt this approach for BOC/JK, to make it a more inclusive event. Too many events, particularly at A/B, are still primarily presented by age class, which is off-putting to people of lesser ability.
- we are putting on these courses (using colour or other descriptions, as above);
- and then (separately)f you want to take part in X league / championsips, then enter the course applicable to your age, which is ...
We could even adopt this approach for BOC/JK, to make it a more inclusive event. Too many events, particularly at A/B, are still primarily presented by age class, which is off-putting to people of lesser ability.
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
Picking unfairly on the East Anglia league - it's easy to visualize what it's like to be a non elite M/W21. See http://www.eaoa.org.uk/EALrules.pdf
The message is 'this age group should be running black/short brown'. Like other leagues there is the option of running a shorter course with reduced points. The language 'running down' surely says you are a lesser orienteer if you run a shorter course than the designated age course? The league might as well say to this age group 'go training and go orienteering regularly or find another sport'.
This philosophy is of course completely contradictory to the national ranking lists where there is no penalty for 'running down' or doing the course length you prefer.
It's not just M/W21s. 12 year olds have a light green expectation, 14 year olds blue/green and 16 year olds short brown/blue. These course expectations only suit juniors who are on a pathway to elite standard. Finally there are those that take up or restart orienteering in their 40s and 50s, a relatively easy group to recruit. They are expected to do brown to short blue.
I suspect these leagues are hangovers from 'badge' events when regional events were all age based/no colours. When badge events disappered I guess it was easier to shoe horn the new colours into the existing leagues as comparing times for runners of the same age class across courses was tricky. But now the ranking list has solved this maths*, there's no reason why these age class leagues can't be replaced with similar leagues based on ranking points, anyone can then run any course and the sport would be much more welcoming and retain many more non elite orienteers.
*for those aged 16 and over
The message is 'this age group should be running black/short brown'. Like other leagues there is the option of running a shorter course with reduced points. The language 'running down' surely says you are a lesser orienteer if you run a shorter course than the designated age course? The league might as well say to this age group 'go training and go orienteering regularly or find another sport'.
This philosophy is of course completely contradictory to the national ranking lists where there is no penalty for 'running down' or doing the course length you prefer.
It's not just M/W21s. 12 year olds have a light green expectation, 14 year olds blue/green and 16 year olds short brown/blue. These course expectations only suit juniors who are on a pathway to elite standard. Finally there are those that take up or restart orienteering in their 40s and 50s, a relatively easy group to recruit. They are expected to do brown to short blue.
I suspect these leagues are hangovers from 'badge' events when regional events were all age based/no colours. When badge events disappered I guess it was easier to shoe horn the new colours into the existing leagues as comparing times for runners of the same age class across courses was tricky. But now the ranking list has solved this maths*, there's no reason why these age class leagues can't be replaced with similar leagues based on ranking points, anyone can then run any course and the sport would be much more welcoming and retain many more non elite orienteers.
*for those aged 16 and over
- SeanC
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
I've been involved in defending the EA League recently (I'm not on the EAOA committee, just a local club chairperson). Interestingly, the point that started the debate was that juniors were being forced to run too easy courses in EAL events and were becoming disheartened The point was also made that running down must be made non-scoring. Both of these are the opposite of your statement about catering to non-elite pathway juniors (and the opposite of my view on the sport becoming more inclusive). My view is that the EAL is the best of bad bunch. It promotes head-to-head racing with your peers and juniors (and others) will prefer to meet at download to discuss their relative speeds between controls on the same course, rather than discuss their min/km on different courses or worse yet, just look at aggregate rankings at the end of the year. Some leagues (based on min/km) reward running down. Some allegedly reward running up (see recent discussion about BO ranking). With EAL I know that if I win my class then I have beaten my peers on aggregate on the same course throughout the year.
There's 4-6 EAL events per year. You can run what you want at most events and at EAL events you can also do the same if you don't care about the league. At yesterday's EAL event I spoke to people running both up and down who didn't give a fig about the league, they just enjoyed getting out in the woods.
There's 4-6 EAL events per year. You can run what you want at most events and at EAL events you can also do the same if you don't care about the league. At yesterday's EAL event I spoke to people running both up and down who didn't give a fig about the league, they just enjoyed getting out in the woods.
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Re: Junior entry fees for M/W21?
It's a fair point about juniors (or anyone else) chatting and discussing routes and making the league more regressive with non scoring if not doing a designated course.
EAOA is not exactly overrun with juniors doing TD4 courses if the ranking list is used as a measure? 8 M/W18s with more than 1 ranking list score, 7 M/W 20's. I'm sure that's not unique to EAOA but it's hardly healthy?
I think the juniors doing the same course (where appropriate) could be achieved through the EAOA junior squad or perhaps a whatsapp group for older juniors.
My definition of elite is perhaps different to others - basically I think if people can finish a brown or black then they are elite IMHO, albeit not necessary competing for a british squad place. Take the average not so sporty person, get them to enjoy short TD4 courses like short green/green after a few events - that's a big market (especially in the south where areas are mainly TD4). Expect people to do short brown/brown/black etc. That's a small market.
EAOA is not exactly overrun with juniors doing TD4 courses if the ranking list is used as a measure? 8 M/W18s with more than 1 ranking list score, 7 M/W 20's. I'm sure that's not unique to EAOA but it's hardly healthy?
I think the juniors doing the same course (where appropriate) could be achieved through the EAOA junior squad or perhaps a whatsapp group for older juniors.
My definition of elite is perhaps different to others - basically I think if people can finish a brown or black then they are elite IMHO, albeit not necessary competing for a british squad place. Take the average not so sporty person, get them to enjoy short TD4 courses like short green/green after a few events - that's a big market (especially in the south where areas are mainly TD4). Expect people to do short brown/brown/black etc. That's a small market.
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