Bearing in mind once again that a good time was had by all, and we're only talking about one course. But since we're onto the details (and it's fun!) I think there are a number of factors that all contributed to the 90 minute winning time on M40L:
1. The CLRs for M35/40/45/50 are 0.68/65/53/50 so there is a big cliff between 40 and 45 which doesn't seem to make much sense
2. The EWT for the 0.65 M40 course is "60-65" vs an M21E (previous) EWT of 90-100, so the M40s are expected to run the same speed as M21Es. On the same course W21E are expected to take 70-80 (which is actually quite insulting).
> So even if planned within the previous rules, the M40L winning time is likely to be more like 70-75 vs 55-65 on M45 (0.53 CLR)
Then in addition:
3. The planner lengthened the W21E/M40L course a bit, particularly in the notsonice bits [though Megan still managed it in 74]
4. Arguably the leading M40s aren't quite as good as they could be [shoot me down now if you like!]
And there we are. Although really somebody could have said, "are we sure that M40 being 500m further than M35 makes sense"...
JK 2023 Lake District
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
Arnold wrote:Bearing in mind once again that a good time was had by all, and we're only talking about one course. But since we're onto the details (and it's fun!) I think there are a number of factors that all contributed to the 90 minute winning time on M40L:
1. The CLRs for M35/40/45/50 are 0.68/65/53/50 so there is a big cliff between 40 and 45 which doesn't seem to make much sense
2. The EWT for the 0.65 M40 course is "60-65" vs an M21E (previous) EWT of 90-100, so the M40s are expected to run the same speed as M21Es. On the same course W21E are expected to take 70-80 (which is actually quite insulting).
I think the 60-65 is a mistake in the rules - all other classes specify 10 minute bands so it probably is meant to be 60-70.
The CLR is calculated for W21E using a running speed ratio of 0.82 and a pre-rule-change EWT of 70-80 minutes comes out as (0.82 * 75 / 95) = 0.65. IF M40s shared the course this would have been right at the top end of the range.
> So even if planned within the previous rules, the M40L winning time is likely to be more like 70-75 vs 55-65 on M45 (0.53 CLR)
Then in addition:
3. The planner lengthened the W21E/M40L course a bit,
Since the course was NOT shared then the M40 course should have stayed the same or been shortened, rather than lengthened.
4. Arguably the leading M40s aren't quite as good as they could be [shoot me down now if you like!]
Given that an M45 completed the M21E course in under 92 minutes (within the WRE EWT range for M21s), then it suggests that:
1) the planner was a bit over-enthusiastic when shortening the elite course and
2) the much shorter M40 course could have been won in considerably less than 90 minutes.
- pete.owens
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
Back on the more general topic of the JK, I'll echo the general message of wow, what a great event, thanks to all involved!
Things I particularly liked:
> The planning on all days, including Bigland*
> The terrain
> General organisation standard, everything seemed to be thought through
> Good provision of toilets (especially relays)
> Parking/roads - all excellent, felt like we maybe didn't terrorise the local infrastracture.
Constructive things to bear in mind as nice to have (not complaints)
> Being clear about who the drinks points were for (clashes between control descriptions, final details and what was said on the ground, I was refused drinks at one but welcomed at another)
> maybe final details could have a key summary box for each day. they were excellent though, some of the diagrams must have taken aaaaages!
* appreciate the planning had more controls and may not on the face of it been close to what the IOF/BO might call "long distance". In the 2015 Elite I think the longer legs ended up at times with navigating crossing point > crossing point or on the slope just easily bailing high or low on the slope, rather than having a genuine choice to go straight. At Bigland on Sunday I thought it was a full mental workout for the whole time with no let up (even on the taped routes haha).
thanks again!
Things I particularly liked:
> The planning on all days, including Bigland*
> The terrain
> General organisation standard, everything seemed to be thought through
> Good provision of toilets (especially relays)
> Parking/roads - all excellent, felt like we maybe didn't terrorise the local infrastracture.
Constructive things to bear in mind as nice to have (not complaints)
> Being clear about who the drinks points were for (clashes between control descriptions, final details and what was said on the ground, I was refused drinks at one but welcomed at another)
> maybe final details could have a key summary box for each day. they were excellent though, some of the diagrams must have taken aaaaages!
* appreciate the planning had more controls and may not on the face of it been close to what the IOF/BO might call "long distance". In the 2015 Elite I think the longer legs ended up at times with navigating crossing point > crossing point or on the slope just easily bailing high or low on the slope, rather than having a genuine choice to go straight. At Bigland on Sunday I thought it was a full mental workout for the whole time with no let up (even on the taped routes haha).
thanks again!
- andy L
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
As we are sharing minor niggles, here's something which was evident at the (excellent) JK, and other recent events. Since we have been using the smaller, yellow, fiberglass control posts an awful lot of control flags have been left dangling down at ground level instead of being hung at the top of the post.
If you look at Wendy Carlyle's photos of the University day you will see that the kites are almost sitting on the grass but if you look at her photos of High Dam you will see the kites at the top of the pole. BOF rules do not specify a height, but down past half mast doesn't look right to me. All we need to do is tie a little loop in the kite's nylon line and hang that on the little hook at the top of the pole.
And I still enjoyed myself despite my dire performance.
If you look at Wendy Carlyle's photos of the University day you will see that the kites are almost sitting on the grass but if you look at her photos of High Dam you will see the kites at the top of the pole. BOF rules do not specify a height, but down past half mast doesn't look right to me. All we need to do is tie a little loop in the kite's nylon line and hang that on the little hook at the top of the pole.
And I still enjoyed myself despite my dire performance.
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
Excellent JK. Massive thanks to all who made it happen
I think the oversubscribed M21E solution worked very well
Please can we have the JK in the Lakes every year?
My only gripe (and this definitely isn't anyone on the organising team's fault) is who took all the M21E1 part one maps from Bigland? By the time I tried to reclaim mine they had all gone
I think the oversubscribed M21E solution worked very well
Please can we have the JK in the Lakes every year?
My only gripe (and this definitely isn't anyone on the organising team's fault) is who took all the M21E1 part one maps from Bigland? By the time I tried to reclaim mine they had all gone
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Homer - diehard
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
Homer,
In response to your comments:
Thanks, appreciated
I agree, it worked well
No! Another region can have the pleasure for a few years
I have a good collection of maps from D1-3 that I'll look through and try to get you one
In response to your comments:
Thanks, appreciated
I agree, it worked well
No! Another region can have the pleasure for a few years
I have a good collection of maps from D1-3 that I'll look through and try to get you one
- DM
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
DM wrote:I have a good collection of maps from D1-3 that I'll look through and try to get you one
Thanks DM.
DM wrote:No! Another region can have the pleasure for a few years
Obviously it would be too much for the NWOA to organise every year but I believe EMOA have previously organised the JK in the Lakes (2004?) and next year they are 'borrowing' areas from WMOA.
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Homer - diehard
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
On that note, will there ever be a JK in Scotland again?
- Arnold
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
Whilst, obviously the "quality" of the areas for the JK varies significantly from region to region, I do think it a shame that it doesn't visit all the regions of the UK on a more or less regular schedule.
Of course some regions struggle more than others due to the number of volunteers required. And here we should be (as a community) supporting the regions that struggle in this aspect - led by BOF (IMO)
But if the JK is to continue to as an orienteering "festival" then part of the deal has to be visiting all parts of the UK.
Of course some regions struggle more than others due to the number of volunteers required. And here we should be (as a community) supporting the regions that struggle in this aspect - led by BOF (IMO)
But if the JK is to continue to as an orienteering "festival" then part of the deal has to be visiting all parts of the UK.
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
Just to add my appreciation for all the hard work put into what was an excellent JK. The quality of organisation was particularly marked (glad I cycled to Day 2 though!). I opted out of Day 3 - my ability to recover between races seems to have declined massively in the past year (it was never brilliant), and I wanted to enjoy the relays - but the other 3 days were great. Although the sprint is usually my weekend highlight, the days actually seemed to get better as the weekend progressed, which I suspect was at least partly cumulative enjoyment kicking in.
I do think the JK Relays are so much more enjoyable than the British - age combinations are far better, and the oft-cited reasons for the difference, that the British 'needs' to be different and has to be age classes because its the British Relays, really don't hold up any more for me. At the very least, the BR ages need to be more flexible (and surely we can do better than Mixed 'Ad Hoc' at both?)
I do think the JK Relays are so much more enjoyable than the British - age combinations are far better, and the oft-cited reasons for the difference, that the British 'needs' to be different and has to be age classes because its the British Relays, really don't hold up any more for me. At the very least, the BR ages need to be more flexible (and surely we can do better than Mixed 'Ad Hoc' at both?)
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
Arnold wrote:On that note, will there ever be a JK in Scotland again?
We're waiting for England to take a turn staging a WOC
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
graeme wrote:Arnold wrote:On that note, will there ever be a JK in Scotland again?
We're waiting for England to take a turn staging a WOC
I have a plan.
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
Do tell! DM if you prefer.
I had a plan (think it was around 2015) to stage a WMOC based in London and with travel to areas like Esher, Epping and Mytchett by public transport + sprint venues in the city.
There wasn't a huge amount of interest from the SE based clubs a the time, and Visit London couldn't care less given the amount of events they already have, so I ran out of puff a bit and gave up.
But it's still lurking there as an idea.
I had a plan (think it was around 2015) to stage a WMOC based in London and with travel to areas like Esher, Epping and Mytchett by public transport + sprint venues in the city.
There wasn't a huge amount of interest from the SE based clubs a the time, and Visit London couldn't care less given the amount of events they already have, so I ran out of puff a bit and gave up.
But it's still lurking there as an idea.
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
Arnold wrote:Do tell! DM if you prefer.
The plan is not yet sufficiently advanced nor things tried to divulge much detail at this stage.
But obviously there is no point in anywhere in the UK except Scotland or the Lake District attempting to hold a forest WOC. (Btw a LD WOC would be good if anyone in NWOA wants to run with it )
Given that Edinburgh is hosting a sprint WOC in 2024, it's unlikely anywhere in the UK is going to host another sprint WOC before at least the mid to late 2030s I'd guess. Just from a point of view of wanting to share WOCs around more countries. (In some ways, whilst it's obviously great that SOA has WOC2024, it means that a English urban WOC is not going to happen anytime soon).
Unless they go back to having annual WOCs in each discipline, but have 2 separate venues (one forest, one urban).
But it's a given to say that I think there is urban terrain in the UK that is suitable for hosting WOC-standard sprints. Having seen the terrain Denmark put forward last year, we can match that.
I have some ideas on that front.
Challenges are likely to be finding venues/councils and particularly residents that are open to hosting the event. But it's not an impossibility.
What I wouldn't want to happen (on a personal level) is for London to get it. The SE already gets too much stuff. It's all about "levelling up...."
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Re: JK 2023 Lake District
There are also European Champs, World Cups, Junior World Champs, European Youth Champs, World University Champs, all of which are 'easier' to get than WOC... And have either never been in GB, or not for a long long time
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