Only a handful of teams entered so far for this year's Peter Palmer Relays and most of those are from SYO. Its traditionally one of the highlights of the junior calendar so hopefully a load more clubs are busy sorting their teams ahead of Sunday's entry deadline.
This years event returns to Sutton Park on 10th/11th September
http://www.coboc.org.uk/documents/peterpalmerfinaldetails2022.pdf
Peter Palmer Relays
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Peter Palmer Relays
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buzz - addict
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
FVO won't make it this year. But have earmarked this event for next year.
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Lard - diehard
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
Lard wrote:FVO won't make it this year. But have earmarked this event for next year.
Great to hear you're targeting next year! Sadly there were half as many teams entered this year as pre-pandemic years.
It really is a fantastic event - something for clubs to aim for over the year. If you didn't make it this year why not start now and get a team together for next year. I'm sure British Orienteering can help with ideas and resources for junior development.
I hear FVO dispatched a spy (young Goddard) to check out SYO club night and Saturday Series event, as well as assessing the competition at this year's Peter Palmer Relay (sneaky!).
See you at CSC Final in a few weeks!
Last edited by buzz on Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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buzz - addict
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
I didn't hear anything from our club captain about this, to be fair we don't normally enter as we don't have many juniors who would travel to such events. Looking at the results:
Clubs represented: SYO, WCOC, SN, HH, SUFFOC, DEE, SO, WAOC (8 out of 70+ clubs)
Big clubs not represented: BOK, SLOW, DEVON, DVO, MDOC, LOC, AIRE, HOC, LEI, NOC, FVO, GRAMP, SLOW, TVOC... and others I have probably missed..
BO regions represented (number of clubs): YH(1), NW(2), SE(2), SC(1), EA(2)
BO regions not represented: SW, WALES, WM, EM, NE, SCOTLAND
I don't know which person or committee manages the competition, but with only around 10% of clubs represented I think it's fair to say some major changes are needed to ensure the survival of the competition. Major changes can be made with the spirit of the competition remaining... which I assume is all about giving juniors a great experience in a team.
Major changes could include:
- greatly reduce the restrictions, age and sex of competitors etc, to give more clubs a chance to enter.
- encourage regional teams with separate prizes for best regional team and best club team.
A questionnaire sent to clubs asking why they did or didn't enter, and for positive and negative feedback would be a good idea. Maybe the key issues are not the competition barriers but something else. If it's distance then maybe 2 or 3 regional competitions and a whole country 'final' every 4 years might work better? Are juniors deterred by the time of day? Is it just that some clubs effectively have no functioning junior section, and juniors could be allowed dual membership so they can compete in both their home club and local 'junior' club?
Even if the results of such a questionnaire are ignored, it would at least help to publicize next year's event![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Clubs represented: SYO, WCOC, SN, HH, SUFFOC, DEE, SO, WAOC (8 out of 70+ clubs)
Big clubs not represented: BOK, SLOW, DEVON, DVO, MDOC, LOC, AIRE, HOC, LEI, NOC, FVO, GRAMP, SLOW, TVOC... and others I have probably missed..
BO regions represented (number of clubs): YH(1), NW(2), SE(2), SC(1), EA(2)
BO regions not represented: SW, WALES, WM, EM, NE, SCOTLAND
I don't know which person or committee manages the competition, but with only around 10% of clubs represented I think it's fair to say some major changes are needed to ensure the survival of the competition. Major changes can be made with the spirit of the competition remaining... which I assume is all about giving juniors a great experience in a team.
Major changes could include:
- greatly reduce the restrictions, age and sex of competitors etc, to give more clubs a chance to enter.
- encourage regional teams with separate prizes for best regional team and best club team.
A questionnaire sent to clubs asking why they did or didn't enter, and for positive and negative feedback would be a good idea. Maybe the key issues are not the competition barriers but something else. If it's distance then maybe 2 or 3 regional competitions and a whole country 'final' every 4 years might work better? Are juniors deterred by the time of day? Is it just that some clubs effectively have no functioning junior section, and juniors could be allowed dual membership so they can compete in both their home club and local 'junior' club?
Even if the results of such a questionnaire are ignored, it would at least help to publicize next year's event
![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Last edited by SeanC on Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
SeanC wrote:A questionnaire sent to clubs asking why they did or didn't enter, and for positive and negative feedback would be a good idea. Maybe the key issues are not the competition barriers but something else.
This is a good idea. I could speculate about what some of the issues might be, but actually gathering data would be a better approach.
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
SeanC wrote:I didn't hear anything from our club captain about this, to be fair we don't normally enter as we don't have many juniors who would travel to such events. Looking at the results:
Clubs represented: SYO, WCOC, SN, HH, SUFFOC, DEE, SO (7 out of 70+ clubs)
Big clubs not represented: BOK, SLOW, DEVON, DVO, MDOC, LOC, AIRE, HOC, LEI, NOC, FVO, GRAMP, SLOW, TVOC... and others I have probably missed..
BO regions represented (number of clubs): YH(1), NW(2), SE(2), SC(2), EA(1)
BO regions not represented: SW, WALES, WM, EM, NE, SCOTLAND
There were two clubs from EA.
SUFFOC and WAOC.
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
Apologies to WAOC and EAOA. Edited original post...
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
A questionnaire sent to clubs asking why they did or didn't enter, and for positive and negative feedback would be a good idea.
Agreed
- greatly reduce the restrictions, age and sex of competitors etc, to give more clubs a chance to enter.
>>> All standards ofJunior orienteers from the M/W12 to M/W18.
>>> Each team must have at least two laps run by boys and two laps run by girls.
How much less restrictive do you want to be ?
- encourage regional teams with separate prizes for best regional team and best club team.
This would most probbaly result in fewer clubs entering as the top juniors would all want to run in a regional team hoping to win the overall race.
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
How much less restrictive do I want it to be? Only as restrictive that enables a successful competition. Do we need to insist on two females (or two males)? Lots of clubs have a lot of M/W 10's so a multi leg junior competition would have more chance of attracting a full team if these juniors could be accommodated. The latter probably means looking harder at the format.
Regional teams - fair point SJC. The competition might be more successful as a regional competition rather than a club competition with regional squad organisers raising the teams and going beyond their normal group. That way there might have been competitors from SW, EM, WM, NE and Scotland. The danger is that the juniors not in a regional squad might not be reached, but conversely this might be an opportunity for juniors on the periphery of regional squads to get to know the squads and visa versa, improving their motivation and helping the squad organisers to spot potential.
Another idea might be for clubs which can consistently raise teams to be designated 'junior competition hub clubs', and juniors from adjoining non hub clubs could run for the hub club. The risk here is that the club captain from the hub club might have little knowledge or incentive to promote the event to the non hub clubs. The benefit might be that juniors from neighbouring clubs get to know each other to form a social group at other events such as regionals. Also the hub/non-hub club thing could work for the Yvette Baker Trophy, which has similar issues.
Of course a questionnaire might reveal other issues. A junior I know well said he wouldn't go because he didn't like the idea of sharing a school floor with a lot of people he didn't know, and fair enough really. Would the relay therefore be more successful if a day relay?
If these solutions sound radical/heretic, doing nothing or some gentle tinkering isn't the safe option when half the regions, and the vast majority of the clubs don't send even one team, and the numbers are on a downward curve.
Regional teams - fair point SJC. The competition might be more successful as a regional competition rather than a club competition with regional squad organisers raising the teams and going beyond their normal group. That way there might have been competitors from SW, EM, WM, NE and Scotland. The danger is that the juniors not in a regional squad might not be reached, but conversely this might be an opportunity for juniors on the periphery of regional squads to get to know the squads and visa versa, improving their motivation and helping the squad organisers to spot potential.
Another idea might be for clubs which can consistently raise teams to be designated 'junior competition hub clubs', and juniors from adjoining non hub clubs could run for the hub club. The risk here is that the club captain from the hub club might have little knowledge or incentive to promote the event to the non hub clubs. The benefit might be that juniors from neighbouring clubs get to know each other to form a social group at other events such as regionals. Also the hub/non-hub club thing could work for the Yvette Baker Trophy, which has similar issues.
Of course a questionnaire might reveal other issues. A junior I know well said he wouldn't go because he didn't like the idea of sharing a school floor with a lot of people he didn't know, and fair enough really. Would the relay therefore be more successful if a day relay?
If these solutions sound radical/heretic, doing nothing or some gentle tinkering isn't the safe option when half the regions, and the vast majority of the clubs don't send even one team, and the numbers are on a downward curve.
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
Wy not just run it round a car park in a City Centre.... seems to be where all orienteering is going now
Go orienteering in Lithuania......... best in the world:)
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Gross - god
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
Gross wrote:Wy not just run it round a car park in a City Centre.... seems to be where all orienteering is going now
Well, that is a useful suggestion!
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DaveK - green
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
This must be the first time in years that the words "Gross" and "useful" have been used in the same sentence.
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Auld Badger - white
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
Some good ideas here – I think many of the ideas to make the event more accessible have already been introduced recently through the introduction of the DayBreak class with smaller teams, starting at daybreak, all TD3 courses, and only one girl required per team.
Personally I think it’s of some concern that reducing the requirements for girl competitors is seen as necessary. The event was always intended to be a challenge with the aim of raising standards, one of the challenges might be making the club more attractive to girls.
Similarly moving the event to daytime lessons the excitement and reduces the challenge and in any case more than half the event is in daylight for those not comfortable orienteering in the dark.
Finding a sports hall close to suitable terrain is a challenge for organisers and limits the choice of venue, but the social side is the most important aspect of the event and being part of team, mixing with other teams, the footy competition, the excitement of getting up in the middle of the night is all part of the experience. If you can add to that an ‘arena’ with some atmosphere – commentary and music, then you have a special event that kids will want to come back to each year.
The timing of the event is a perhaps an issue with a raft of competitions for schools, clubs and regions filling the autumn calendar. In particular the Scots have their inter area championships a few weeks before. It’s also difficult to get teams together shortly after the end of summer holidays. Perhaps moving one or two of the events to a post exam June/July date might work better?
Direct marketing is the most effective for this type of event. When SYO organised the relays a few years ago we contacted all the clubs directly, with help from British Orienteering, and also dropped leaflets and chatted to club coaches at the JK and British. Contacting clubs now would give them a chance to build a team for next year’s competition even if they’re starting from scratch.
The DayBreak relay and other ideas were introduced as part of British Orienteering’s ‘Every Junior Matters’ initiative, but since Phil Conway left I don’t know whether British Orienteering have any specific junior development programmes. If anyone from British Orienteering still reads Nopesport perhaps they can get someone involved!
Personally I think it’s of some concern that reducing the requirements for girl competitors is seen as necessary. The event was always intended to be a challenge with the aim of raising standards, one of the challenges might be making the club more attractive to girls.
Similarly moving the event to daytime lessons the excitement and reduces the challenge and in any case more than half the event is in daylight for those not comfortable orienteering in the dark.
Finding a sports hall close to suitable terrain is a challenge for organisers and limits the choice of venue, but the social side is the most important aspect of the event and being part of team, mixing with other teams, the footy competition, the excitement of getting up in the middle of the night is all part of the experience. If you can add to that an ‘arena’ with some atmosphere – commentary and music, then you have a special event that kids will want to come back to each year.
The timing of the event is a perhaps an issue with a raft of competitions for schools, clubs and regions filling the autumn calendar. In particular the Scots have their inter area championships a few weeks before. It’s also difficult to get teams together shortly after the end of summer holidays. Perhaps moving one or two of the events to a post exam June/July date might work better?
Direct marketing is the most effective for this type of event. When SYO organised the relays a few years ago we contacted all the clubs directly, with help from British Orienteering, and also dropped leaflets and chatted to club coaches at the JK and British. Contacting clubs now would give them a chance to build a team for next year’s competition even if they’re starting from scratch.
The DayBreak relay and other ideas were introduced as part of British Orienteering’s ‘Every Junior Matters’ initiative, but since Phil Conway left I don’t know whether British Orienteering have any specific junior development programmes. If anyone from British Orienteering still reads Nopesport perhaps they can get someone involved!
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buzz - addict
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
You make a good case for the defense Buzz. However standing back from the rules and history, a national competition where just over 10% of clubs enter can't be seen as a success. Surely some more radical changes are needed to ensure it's future.
The 'must be a female/females rule'. I don't think it stands up to scrutiny. If the aim is to somehow influence clubs to recruit more female juniors because they are unrepresented.. what about other unrepresented groups? Why just this one? For a medium sized club like my own, entering a national junior competition and travelling that far is for a minority of our juniors. Maybe two or three families. It's then just luck whether those families are available and have a female. The rule probably stops a team or two competing, with the corresponding negative impact on junior development in that club.
Given that the daybreak competition is to encourage wider participation and is only 4 legs, it seems particularly strange that it insists on one female runner, but in other respects open to all juniors above M/W10.
I do get that the night running and early starts are part of the excitement. I love the Harvester myself, or perhaps it's a love/hate relationship. But if we're looking to ensure a competitions future we should be open minded. If 3 times as many teams would turn up to a completely day relay then that might be a sacrifice worth making. That's a big might and a more memorable but less popular event could be better for junior development.
The footy competition, arena, social atmosphere must all be positive... but the shared floor sleeping must put many off, particularly the older, more reserved juniors who would want their privacy. Back in the 80s I remember many/most? people sleeping on the marquee floor at the Harvester, but the last Harvester I went to about 10 years ago that had stopped and everyone was in their own tent or camper van. Would tents be an easier sell to juniors? Something a questionnaire could discover.
These competitions need to evolve. I think I'm asking the same question as Buzz in a different way, but is there an 'owner' for this competition who would analyse, make necessary changes and promote the competition? We used to have BO groups that met and proposed changes, do they still happen? Or are our competitions just careering on unchanged, frozen in time........
If there's no owner as such, then that's an opportunity for next year's organiser to be creative. Ignore the competition rules and focus on the competition aims and make a lot of changes that might make the competition a lot more popular.. With such low participation numbers there is nothing to lose![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
The 'must be a female/females rule'. I don't think it stands up to scrutiny. If the aim is to somehow influence clubs to recruit more female juniors because they are unrepresented.. what about other unrepresented groups? Why just this one? For a medium sized club like my own, entering a national junior competition and travelling that far is for a minority of our juniors. Maybe two or three families. It's then just luck whether those families are available and have a female. The rule probably stops a team or two competing, with the corresponding negative impact on junior development in that club.
Given that the daybreak competition is to encourage wider participation and is only 4 legs, it seems particularly strange that it insists on one female runner, but in other respects open to all juniors above M/W10.
I do get that the night running and early starts are part of the excitement. I love the Harvester myself, or perhaps it's a love/hate relationship. But if we're looking to ensure a competitions future we should be open minded. If 3 times as many teams would turn up to a completely day relay then that might be a sacrifice worth making. That's a big might and a more memorable but less popular event could be better for junior development.
The footy competition, arena, social atmosphere must all be positive... but the shared floor sleeping must put many off, particularly the older, more reserved juniors who would want their privacy. Back in the 80s I remember many/most? people sleeping on the marquee floor at the Harvester, but the last Harvester I went to about 10 years ago that had stopped and everyone was in their own tent or camper van. Would tents be an easier sell to juniors? Something a questionnaire could discover.
These competitions need to evolve. I think I'm asking the same question as Buzz in a different way, but is there an 'owner' for this competition who would analyse, make necessary changes and promote the competition? We used to have BO groups that met and proposed changes, do they still happen? Or are our competitions just careering on unchanged, frozen in time........
If there's no owner as such, then that's an opportunity for next year's organiser to be creative. Ignore the competition rules and focus on the competition aims and make a lot of changes that might make the competition a lot more popular.. With such low participation numbers there is nothing to lose
![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
Sean - I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. From the feedback I've heard over they years, the event is massively popular among the kids who give it try, its just that not many get the chance.
Many of the clubs we talked to ahead of the Sheffield event just didn't have enough juniors to make up a team, or didn't have anyone to organise or coach them.
Some clubs just didn't seem interested in encouraging juniors at all - not much you can do for them. But for those who recognise the value of junior development, having targets like taking a team to the Yvette Baker Trophy or Peter Palmer Relays can be a great motivator.
As to who 'owns' these events, BOF has a development committee and I think a junior development group, plus professional development officers although I'm not sure if anyone is specifically looking at junior development since Phil Conway left.
My question for British Orienteering would be does every junior still matter?
Many of the clubs we talked to ahead of the Sheffield event just didn't have enough juniors to make up a team, or didn't have anyone to organise or coach them.
Some clubs just didn't seem interested in encouraging juniors at all - not much you can do for them. But for those who recognise the value of junior development, having targets like taking a team to the Yvette Baker Trophy or Peter Palmer Relays can be a great motivator.
As to who 'owns' these events, BOF has a development committee and I think a junior development group, plus professional development officers although I'm not sure if anyone is specifically looking at junior development since Phil Conway left.
My question for British Orienteering would be does every junior still matter?
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buzz - addict
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