DFOK have a new website and have IMHO done a great job of displaying their permanent and maprun courses on a single page, nicely timed for the holiday season.
Key things I like: Really clear and easy to read list, nice explanation of maprun vs permanent, and maps are available to download and print without having to go through the distressing 'GO Orienteering' website.
I'm thinking this design could be a good standard for other clubs, or are there even better designs other clubs are using?
https://www.dfok.co.uk/anytime
Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
I have in my head that the OS copyright rules say POCs should be via the BOF site. What's so bad about it? We like the fact we get an email address for the user and can gently reach out to them to see how they go on, if they might like to run with timing etc?
- Atomic
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
I like the map and the clear explanations. I agree it's a well-above average presentation of anytime courses. Whether or not it's useful and engaging for newcomers is another question.
Personally, I'm not convinced about conflating permanent and virtual courses. I tend to feel that permanent courses are in more accessible locations and designed with beginners in mind, whereas virtual courses tend to be more geared towards established orienteers. I would certainly encourage beginners to start with something that has confirmation on the ground. For me, virtual being a progression route from permanent (or an alternative but more advanced entry point) would be better. But that may just be me.
There's also the question of whether virtual is the right word. I know many people who assume this means on a computer. I see some clubs use GPS-enabled, which might be a better term. And as Atomic says, I'm not sure this approach is in line with OS copyright rules.
I don't think the Go Orienteering portal is too bad, and it actually collects data which is something woefully lacking in a lot of O-activity. Indeed, we can only really know what's the best way of doing these things if we have at least some indication of participation numbers and/or feedback from the target market. That's the area where I think coordinated action could offer most benefit.
Personally, I'm not convinced about conflating permanent and virtual courses. I tend to feel that permanent courses are in more accessible locations and designed with beginners in mind, whereas virtual courses tend to be more geared towards established orienteers. I would certainly encourage beginners to start with something that has confirmation on the ground. For me, virtual being a progression route from permanent (or an alternative but more advanced entry point) would be better. But that may just be me.
There's also the question of whether virtual is the right word. I know many people who assume this means on a computer. I see some clubs use GPS-enabled, which might be a better term. And as Atomic says, I'm not sure this approach is in line with OS copyright rules.
I don't think the Go Orienteering portal is too bad, and it actually collects data which is something woefully lacking in a lot of O-activity. Indeed, we can only really know what's the best way of doing these things if we have at least some indication of participation numbers and/or feedback from the target market. That's the area where I think coordinated action could offer most benefit.
- spitalfields
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
SeanC wrote:DFOK have a new website and have IMHO done a great job of displaying their permanent and maprun courses on a single page, nicely timed for the holiday season.
Key things I like: Really clear and easy to read list, nice explanation of maprun vs permanent, and maps are available to download and print without having to go through the distressing 'GO Orienteering' website.
I'm thinking this design could be a good standard for other clubs, or are there even better designs other clubs are using?
https://www.dfok.co.uk/anytime
https://maprun.uk/ has all the MapRun courses in the UK on without a visitor needing to go hunting across many websites (or battle Go Orienteering). Club admins need only link (or upload) their maps (it has an OS licence too). Everything else is auto-generated (map for start location, postcodes, course descriptions, course lengths). Furthermore, it will also honour participation dates and PIN-protected courses. It has around 1000 maps and more are being added all the time. It also supports MapRunLinks and generating QR codes to link to the results and the event page (to be put on the map). It'll soon auto-determine whether courses are urban/rural and allow that to be searched too. It can be branded by club and each club already has their own address on it: https://dfok.maprun.uk
Regarding data collection, it does tally event views and map downloads.
- sborrill
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
I'm putting myself in the shoes of a non member/newcomer here. Go orienteering forces the user to jump through hoops. The site forces registration, but even that isn't obvious. There is no guest checkout. Login using Facebook gives an error.
Most websites with baskets abandoned forced user registration around 2005 as they found it puts many people off. This will be more so now as people are more reluctant than in 2005 to part with personal information as people are more aware about how their data might be sold on.
The basket system is very odd. It looks like it's going to cost money but then it's free. 'Information' as well as maps have to be put in the basket.
There are spelling mistakes. The styling seems to be a bit odd and home spun. Linking from a club website means jumping domain names. Combined with the odd basket and registration process it feels more like a phishing site or some kind of scam when linked off a club website.
But back on the DFOK website, to get your map just needs two clicks and you stay on the dfok.co.uk domain.
Most websites with baskets abandoned forced user registration around 2005 as they found it puts many people off. This will be more so now as people are more reluctant than in 2005 to part with personal information as people are more aware about how their data might be sold on.
The basket system is very odd. It looks like it's going to cost money but then it's free. 'Information' as well as maps have to be put in the basket.
There are spelling mistakes. The styling seems to be a bit odd and home spun. Linking from a club website means jumping domain names. Combined with the odd basket and registration process it feels more like a phishing site or some kind of scam when linked off a club website.
But back on the DFOK website, to get your map just needs two clicks and you stay on the dfok.co.uk domain.
- SeanC
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
SeanC wrote:I'm putting myself in the shoes of a non member/newcomer here. Go orienteering forces the user to jump through hoops. The site forces registration, but even that isn't obvious. There is no guest checkout. Login using Facebook gives an error.
Yes, those were red lines when developing MapRun.uk
SeanC wrote:But back on the DFOK website, to get your map just needs two clicks and you stay on the dfok.co.uk domain.
It can be a lot more clicks than that if you don't know the name of the course.
If you're a non-member/newcomer why would you look at a particular club's site, especially if you open the MapRun app and look for Events near me? The problem is particularly acute in Kent as the area overlaps with Saxons. e.g. in Leybourne there are MapRun courses for both Saxons and DFOK.
- sborrill
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
Yes, this is a fair comment about club's sites in boundary areas and the Maprun site is very good.
I guess for new orienteers their local club site is where they are more likely turn to initially. Maprun, British Orienteering, regional websites probably discovered off the club website or via google.
We've got a few different names now for 'non event' orienteering: permanent courses, maprun and soon in our area 'Find Your Way', so it could get confusing.
I guess for new orienteers their local club site is where they are more likely turn to initially. Maprun, British Orienteering, regional websites probably discovered off the club website or via google.
We've got a few different names now for 'non event' orienteering: permanent courses, maprun and soon in our area 'Find Your Way', so it could get confusing.
- SeanC
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
spitalfields wrote:And as Atomic says, I'm not sure this approach is in line with OS copyright rules.
“Not sure” is kind of my situation too… I’ve recently agreed to take on management of my club’s web site and been looking for hard-and-fast (and current) information on what can and can’t be displayed/downloaded. (I’m guessing at some level “fair use” applies to small extracts, for example).
The OS web site is split into various sections, none of which obviously includes “not for profit” web sites, and I feel I’ve hit a bit of a brick wall.
If anyone can provide an authoritative source of information I’d be very grateful!
- ricardito
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
ricardito wrote:spitalfields wrote:And as Atomic says, I'm not sure this approach is in line with OS copyright rules.
“Not sure” is kind of my situation too… I’ve recently agreed to take on management of my club’s web site and been looking for hard-and-fast (and current) information on what can and can’t be displayed/downloaded. (I’m guessing at some level “fair use” applies to small extracts, for example).
The OS web site is split into various sections, none of which obviously includes “not for profit” web sites, and I feel I’ve hit a bit of a brick wall.
If anyone can provide an authoritative source of information I’d be very grateful!
https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ ... _resources
This appears to state that clubs making POC maps available for direct download are not covered by the BOF map licence and need to take out their own licence.
- spitalfields
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
POC Maps
Some clubs wish to include maps of permanent courses for downloading. The option given to British Orienteering is that this is not covered by their agreement and clubs would be required to take out their own licence for each map at considerable expense. A preferable alternative would be for the maps to be placed on the British Orienteering website using the POC management system with links provided from the controlling club site.
Some clubs wish to include maps of permanent courses for downloading. The option given to British Orienteering is that this is not covered by their agreement and clubs would be required to take out their own licence for each map at considerable expense. A preferable alternative would be for the maps to be placed on the British Orienteering website using the POC management system with links provided from the controlling club site.
- spitalfields
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
spitalfields wrote:https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ ... _resources
This appears to state that clubs making POC maps available for direct download are not covered by the BOF map licence and need to take out their own licence.
Thanks. That is helpful for POC maps (and potentially "conventional" maps used for MapRun).
I don't see any specific exclusion for "fair use" - I'm thinking for example of a tiny fragment of a map included as part of a montaged banner image, say. Does anyone have any knowledge of what could be considered "fair use" under copyright law?
(Also, in such a use case...
British Orienteering wrote:The map extract should include the wording “© Crown Copyright. All rights reserved. 100015287. "
... might seem a bit, um, silly really - at any rate probably visually very odd!)
EDIT: just been looking at https://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use and nothing there seems to apply to this use case... looks like Plan B may have to kick in: draw some imagined fragment of terrain in OOM!
- ricardito
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
ricardito wrote: That is helpful for POC maps (and potentially "conventional" maps used for MapRun).
My understanding is that MapRun have their own OS licence, so conventional maps may be hosted on the UK MapRun site or on the BOF/ Go Orienteering site without the need for an additional licence.
As for 'fair use' of images, my (non-expert) understanding is that small extracts essentially used as a graphic rather than a map are OK. So the sort of thing that might be used in a club quiz challenge to identify areas, but unusable as an actual map. The law is set out here, but is far from definitive: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright Key points for 'fair dealing' are that only small amounts are used, and there is no revenue detriment to the copyright owner- hence, very small extracts that can't be used as a map should be fine (and don't need the copyright notice added as the copyright owner's permission is not required). But, that's an interpretation that could be open to challenge.
- spitalfields
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
ricardito wrote:EDIT: just been looking at https://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use and nothing there seems to apply to this use case... looks like Plan B may have to kick in: draw some imagined fragment of terrain in OOM!
Careful. That's a commercial company that gives (in my experience non-optimal) advice for commercial gain.
This is the site to look at: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright
As I say above, my interpretation is that small map fragments are fine. But, the 'legal advice' is definitively not definitive.
- spitalfields
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
spitalfields wrote:ricardito wrote:EDIT: just been looking at https://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use and nothing there seems to apply to this use case... looks like Plan B may have to kick in: draw some imagined fragment of terrain in OOM!
Careful. That's a commercial company that gives (in my experience non-optimal) advice for commercial gain.
This is the site to look at: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright
As I say above, my interpretation is that small map fragments are fine. But, the 'legal advice' is definitively not definitive.
Good catch! Yes, I agree, there's nothing exactly "bullet-proof" on the gov.uk site either, but there are mitigations (and also good to see there's an "educational use" clause that we could (cough) interpret as applying to fragments used in a "how does an orienteering map work" type of context.
And to be honest I hope the OS's lawyers have better things to do than trawl club web sites for fragments that may or may not be real and certainly aren't causing any loss of revenue!
- ricardito
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Re: Displaying virtual and permanent courses on websites
ricardito wrote:spitalfields wrote:ricardito wrote:EDIT: just been looking at https://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use and nothing there seems to apply to this use case... looks like Plan B may have to kick in: draw some imagined fragment of terrain in OOM!
Careful. That's a commercial company that gives (in my experience non-optimal) advice for commercial gain.
This is the site to look at: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright
As I say above, my interpretation is that small map fragments are fine. But, the 'legal advice' is definitively not definitive.
Good catch! Yes, I agree, there's nothing exactly "bullet-proof" on the gov.uk site either, but there are mitigations (and also good to see there's an "educational use" clause that we could (cough) interpret as applying to fragments used in a "how does an orienteering map work" type of context.
And to be honest I hope the OS's lawyers have better things to do than trawl club web sites for fragments that may or may not be real and certainly aren't causing any loss of revenue!
And 'pastiche' for a montage banner
- spitalfields
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