I'd broadly agree with that.
Most of the rules (at least in content, if not in language) are OK.
Some need rewriting to make clearer, some need rewriting to bring up to date (e.g. Embargo rules) and a few need scrapping (e.g. any mention of age class competiton below "level A" events).
What does need doing is the structure of the rules needs to change to make it easier to understand them (along with rewriting the specific rules to make them less ambiguous in places).
My ideal solution (and the one I shall be putting forward) is that it needs to be a series of documents that sit in a tree.
So you'd have the level 0 - general principles of orienteering. Then Level 1 would be rules that are only applicable at Level D/Local events (<- naming of the levels needs reworking too). Level 2 would be Regional/National (I'd scrap National personally - what's the difference? - at the moment it means nothing) rules. Level 3 would be the Major events rules (generic ones), which then have the bolt-on rules to the specific major competitions (these all already exist and just need tidying up).
That way the it's not one document that's 103 pages long and you only need to pick up the applicable bits - the competition specific rules are very good for this - it's just when you have to go back and dive into "Appendix A" or whatever, it gets confusing.
And it should be structured so you don't repeat things - everything in the Level D events rules should be applicable to Level C and so forth.
I don't think that the rules put off people from taking things on, but I do think that when you need to refer to them, they are confusing and in places contradictory and these need cleaning up. A simpler signposting system would significantly help people in understanding the rules.
In my view at least.
Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
I agree with rf_fozzy that the rules could be usefully be restructured, and starting with principles and then working down from local to major events sounds sensible.
The rules are quite reasonably written with event officials as the target audience, but perhaps a summary of the rules relevant to competitors with an overview of the various disciplines and levels, and details like following/helping, embargoes, forbidden to cross, injuries, start procedures, punching, safeguarding, codes of conduct etc.. Again these could be structured with principles and local events drilling down to major events.
The rules are quite reasonably written with event officials as the target audience, but perhaps a summary of the rules relevant to competitors with an overview of the various disciplines and levels, and details like following/helping, embargoes, forbidden to cross, injuries, start procedures, punching, safeguarding, codes of conduct etc.. Again these could be structured with principles and local events drilling down to major events.
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
a
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
Sean - interesting point. I don't think I was necessarily thinking that controllers were about enforcing the rules. My experience of them is that they do something rather different - they help you to know what the rules are, understand how to apply them (and maybe bend them) and make sure Orienteers get a good (and fair) experience. That said I've only directly worked with 3 controllers so maybe I am lucky! I have dealt with Commissaire's in British Cycling world and that is quite a different experience. it would be wrong to say "Controllers" please start controlling Level D events the same way as you control Level C's. It would be more sensible to say "please make sure this checklist of things are OK", and then updating that list as we learn what is important.
Planning is technically more complex than organising. Many clubs use the same person as planner and organiser at local events. From a resources perspective that makes sense, from a new planner/organiser perspective its a lot to absorb. I suspect a lot of new organiser/palnners get dumped in at the deep end - perhaps because the usual crowd are not available (and therefore less able to advise too). Despite that I've never once had anything other than constructive feedback - despite clearly having made some mistakes. The only people I encounter quoting the rules are:
- on here whinging about their weekend
- a controller pointing out that something was NOT needed and to stop making life hard for myself
- an event series organiser reminding the individual event orgs about some specific rules
As a former newbie (ie. someone who started orienteering as a very slow M40 who went on to plan/organise - I think your anecdotal evidence is probably not representative of all. Here would be my view:These initiatives may generate new participants, but do they generate new planners and organisers? From what I have seen the answer is 'limited' at best. And why don't these 'newbies' become officials? Anecdotally, they are put off by the complexity of the task and the propensity of some established orienteers to wave the voluminous rulebook in their faces for even minor infractions. It seems to me that to survive, the sport needs to lighten up and lose its elite and competition focus.
Planning is technically more complex than organising. Many clubs use the same person as planner and organiser at local events. From a resources perspective that makes sense, from a new planner/organiser perspective its a lot to absorb. I suspect a lot of new organiser/palnners get dumped in at the deep end - perhaps because the usual crowd are not available (and therefore less able to advise too). Despite that I've never once had anything other than constructive feedback - despite clearly having made some mistakes. The only people I encounter quoting the rules are:
- on here whinging about their weekend
- a controller pointing out that something was NOT needed and to stop making life hard for myself
- an event series organiser reminding the individual event orgs about some specific rules
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
Fell running extracts the "requirements for runners" into a separate document. It's not perfect - as drafted, I'd personally say that it's rather too text heavy - but the basic concept is a good one.
I think a good start on revamping the rules of orienteering would be to clearly distinguish the actual rules of the sport from what is, in effect, guidance, best practice or admisitative requirements for event officials.
For example, the requirements that "the Organiser must have a system in place for communicating with key officials at the main locations" or "the Chief Executive must be informed by telephone at the Emergence Contact number included on the last page of this document, if a serious incident has taken place" are not 'rules of orineteering' in the same sense as the requirement that "competitors must not reach through or lean over an impassable feature to punch a control site", and those things do not really belong in the same document.
I think a good start on revamping the rules of orienteering would be to clearly distinguish the actual rules of the sport from what is, in effect, guidance, best practice or admisitative requirements for event officials.
For example, the requirements that "the Organiser must have a system in place for communicating with key officials at the main locations" or "the Chief Executive must be informed by telephone at the Emergence Contact number included on the last page of this document, if a serious incident has taken place" are not 'rules of orineteering' in the same sense as the requirement that "competitors must not reach through or lean over an impassable feature to punch a control site", and those things do not really belong in the same document.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
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Scott - god
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
Atomic wrote:Sean - interesting point. I don't think I was necessarily thinking that controllers were about enforcing the rules. My experience of them is that they do something rather different - they help you to know what the rules are, understand how to apply them (and maybe bend them) and make sure Orienteers get a good (and fair) experience.
This seems to have quietly changed over the last 20 years. When I started controlling, the controller enforced the rules on the planner:
vetoed dodgy controls, checked the map printing. Also had a role as advisor to suggest when legs/courses were not rulebreaking but "suboptimal".
and on the competitor: DQ's, course voiding etc.
That second role is now delegated to the organiser. dodgy control sites and printing are much rarer now maps are easily corrected and overprinting isn't done by hand.
The only people I encounter quoting the rules are:
- on here whinging about their weekend
- a controller pointing out that something was NOT needed and to stop making life hard for myself
- an event series organiser reminding the individual event orgs about some specific rules
Also, if you ever try whinging, you'll find people pointing to where the rules say you're wrong;)
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graeme - god
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
That second role is now delegated to the organiser. dodgy control sites and printing are much rarer now maps are easily corrected and overprinting isn't done by hand.
Perhaps the printing issues have changed but there's still lots of ropey "overprint" issues - its so easy to throw a course into condes with no regard for what you obscure or might confuse people with and I suspect digital print makes us more "just in time" too which probably means less thorough checks, and CDs that don't match the mapped feature etc. That's without getting nitpicky like Start in the CD's not having a description; estimated climbs not being listed on the map; last control to the finish being shown as taped when its not etc. I think there's still plenty of dodgy control sites / placement of control at local events too!
Perhaps though controllers seem like they are applying/arguing over the rules if you progress from planning 'D's where its been a free for all and suddenly things you thought were fine are being critiqued? If controllers were used as rule advisors at level D then the step up to planning C would be less about correcting bad habits and more about the bigger scale event?
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
As I have said before, anyone that sees a pre race advantage in shadowing kids around a white course ought to present themselves to the parents of young children and volunteer. They have clearly never tried it!
How is works in practice is that kids being shadowed often either need a carry a lot of the way, or are running a decent pace, or if you have two kids you might have both of these to manage. Then there’s the cajoling, coaching etc that’s involved in getting to the start, around the course and back from the finish. And if there is either a remote start or finish then the timings get all too tense and stressful. But yeh, if you want to do that all so you save some seconds knowing where the start, finish and last control is, be my guest!
How is works in practice is that kids being shadowed often either need a carry a lot of the way, or are running a decent pace, or if you have two kids you might have both of these to manage. Then there’s the cajoling, coaching etc that’s involved in getting to the start, around the course and back from the finish. And if there is either a remote start or finish then the timings get all too tense and stressful. But yeh, if you want to do that all so you save some seconds knowing where the start, finish and last control is, be my guest!
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
Personally, who cares even if someone does gain a miniscule advantage by shadowing a child around the white course at most events.
What does it matter? There's rarely any prizes involved at any events.
At jk/championships, fair enough. Not anything else.
What does it matter? There's rarely any prizes involved at any events.
At jk/championships, fair enough. Not anything else.
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
rf_fozzy wrote:Personally, who cares even if someone does gain a miniscule advantage by shadowing a child around the white course at most events.
I think that's a typical internet argument thought isn't it? Has anyone every been stopped from shadowing on a white course before their own run at any not championship/league event? Frankly if oranisers are enforcing that rule for people running Blue and shadowing white at a local event they make their own life hard by needing to juggle start times so they happen in the right order.
What does it matter? There's rarely any prizes involved at any events.
At jk/championships, fair enough. Not anything else.
What about the UKOL, SOL etc? Is it OK for me to shadow a W14 round the light green before I do a TD5 course that shares some of its controls? you people do love to get excited both about the rules, and about the excessive application of the rules when in reality pragmatism prevails in 99.9% of circumstances.
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
Yes, British Orienteering Rules are too complex. And this is aggravated by the structure, which has evolved over time. Proof is currently on offer in the British Sprints thread
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
Atomic wrote: Has anyone every been stopped from shadowing on a white course before their own run at any not championship/league event?
I own up to bringing this rule up on here - part of a list of rules that I suggested could be removed to simplify the British Orienteering Rules.
I did see this rule repeated in the event details at a recent event, so I guess it could be deterring entries - particularly from the newer members who may not be in the know enough to know which rules can be ignored.
Of the arguments about this rule I've read on here, the point about shadowing on light green and orange giving an advantage seems a fair one, so a reasonable argument would be to edit the rule to allow shadowing on white and yellow only, though that of course would be making the rules more complex and would result in Graeme quoting a law and talking in a confusing way about coconuts.
It could also be reasonable to scrap this rule and similar specific rules and replace with something like "competitors must declare themselves non competitive if they believe they have gained an unfair advantage for some reason". This would simplify the rules, but of course spawn so much discussion.....
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
Marian wrote:Yes, British Orienteering Rules are too complex. And this is aggravated by the structure, which has evolved over time. Proof is currently on offer in the British Sprints thread
Exactly this.
I think the way the rules are written is excellent - especially the "must" and "should" distinction. We might not like the rules, but thats a different issue.
e.g. for the BS competition thread, there's almost no scope for trimming the rules while maintaining the current structure.
The thing that's never explicit is what happens if the rules are broken. So for example, there does need to be a rule about whether you go on the area before you run.
I see people arguing that a lesser events "nobody cares", and if that's true nothing happens. But its not your business to tell somebody else not to care, and sometimes somebody does care, perhaps enough to protest. Curiously, when that happens the "nobody-cares" people who become non-competitive mysteriously start to care.
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
I think that's why I favour restructing the rules so that it's clearer what applies where (there are *some* that need scrapping and some that rewriting though).
I think simplifying the rules structure as I've outlined above so that it's clear what applies at what event level and where the "shoulds" change into "musts" and for what applied where.
This then also allows a more relaxed approach at local and regional levels.
In terms of sanctions and the embargo rules -those are really badly written. And I know several elites who agree with me. They were written for a different time!
I think simplifying the rules structure as I've outlined above so that it's clear what applies at what event level and where the "shoulds" change into "musts" and for what applied where.
This then also allows a more relaxed approach at local and regional levels.
In terms of sanctions and the embargo rules -those are really badly written. And I know several elites who agree with me. They were written for a different time!
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Re: Are British Orienteering Rules too complex?
Graeme - what about rules on dodgy maps? (of which I've seen at least two good (or should that be bad) examples of recently, not including my own we used for a local event that needs an update...)
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