British Sprints
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
Re: British Sprints
The last World Cup round had 53 starters on first leg, of whom over half handed over within 100 seconds of the leader. I imagine that made it a very different experience to any of the classes at the British, although I do take your point about the perils of setting off too large an age range in a single start. (Given the risk of blocking other competitors, contactless punching should probably be mandatory for everybody.)
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
-
Scott - god
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:43 am
- Location: in the queue for the ice-cream van
Re: British Sprints
graeme wrote:awk wrote: Definitely more use of classes within the course, rather than separate courses.
I'm not quite convinced (says the man who turned the Scottish Relays in to a single course).
I ran first leg and there were plenty enough people about to have a few gentle collisions. Partly that was because the controls were tucked into corners (a good thing): I think if you doubled the size of the course, you'd have to compromise control placement for safety. Also, bumping people of you're own age is somehow safer than, say, M21-on-W60,
And you wouldn't just be doubling the size of the course. At Leeds there were SEVEN courses whereas the rules only require FOUR. The largest mass start had 33 runners - if you combined all the 12+ classes you could end up with 150 all heading for the same set of steps.
- pete.owens
- diehard
- Posts: 752
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:25 am
Re: British Sprints
awk wrote:but actually I would now add the underpass jagged tooth symbol - particularly when down to 1 or 2 teeth.
ISSprOM specifies a minimum of 2 unless there are exceptional circumstances.
Two levels are always going to be difficult to represent on a 2D map - but IMO the new system is a vast improvement on the old bridge symbol. ie a 0.4mm black line, which was difficult to distinguish from an uncossable wall (also a 0.4mm black line)
- pete.owens
- diehard
- Posts: 752
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:25 am
Re: British Sprints
pete.owens wrote:Two levels are always going to be difficult to represent on a 2D map - but IMO the new system is a vast improvement on the old bridge symbol. ie a 0.4mm black line, which was difficult to distinguish from an uncossable wall (also a 0.4mm black line)
Completely agree.
Graeme - fair point about the dangers of too many of mixed ages. I still think, though, that there's room for more flexibility for teams, such as adding 10 years to women's ages for 'qualifying' rather than requiring mixed teams. I also think there's room for more teams in a class/on a course.
-
awk - god
- Posts: 3224
- Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:29 pm
- Location: Bradford
Re: British Sprints
Scott wrote:Given the risk of blocking other competitors, contactless punching should probably be mandatory for everybody.
I didn't run at the sprints but I did sit by the finish control during the qualifiers. There was a problem with people taking a while to punch - mostly people with SIAC who thought they had better punch as well as wave just in case. At the busiest times this was causing a traffic jam, and combined with some of the faster people who wanted to run straight through the control rather than stopping there were a few bumps and near misses.
I guess more si boxes is the answer - there were only 2 on a single tressle. And make sure that people with SIAC know that they don't have to punch and should run straight through. And more space beyond the finish to run into. And maybe have a slow lane for non-SIAC punching.
- frostbite
- light green
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:48 pm
Re: British Sprints
awk wrote:I also think there's room for more teams in a class/on a course.
Well the rules suggest combining:
16-, 40+ and Ad Hoc in one course and
55+ & 65+ in another
Given that organisers at both Leeds and Bradford decided to split this up for safety reasons there probably isn't any scope for further consolidation.
- pete.owens
- diehard
- Posts: 752
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:25 am
Re: British Sprints
pete.owens wrote: there probably isn't any scope for further consolidation.
Of course there is:
Course 1: Open, V40, V50, V60 <- note simplification of categories.
Course 2: Juniors
End.
See simples.
"Safety" is about logisitics of where you site the handover and first legs. Rest is detail.
If you were **really** worried about collisions, you could do it in waves (e.g. Open/V40 and then 2mins later start V50/V60 teams) as they did at Beckett. But everyone runs the same course.
(The suggestion V60s can't run as far as open classes is just silly to me. But then orienteering rates women at 0.85x of a man. Which is just archaic - can you imagine if that happened at a marathon: Men run 42.2km, but women only get to run 35.9km - just so we "equalise" the winning times. It's pure nonsense! Just like it is in XC - another archaic setup).
Some orienteers need to get out more and do more running races - particularly the big relays - 150 teams (each with 2 runners), including vets etc all barrelling off the start line for the same footpaths...
- rf_fozzy
- light green
- Posts: 238
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:13 am
Re: British Sprints
graeme wrote:If you *really* want to give the elites relevant WOC experience, you'd have a one-off BOC sprint in the morning, using it as qualifier for a KO sprint in the afternoon. But I wouldn't want to wish that on any organisers...
This has got me thinking...
How about a weekend sprint champs weekend based as follows:
Sat:
First Individual Heats for KO sprint:
Two sets of parallel courses (one for all men, one for all women) based on an 8-10 minute elite winning time (As per KO sprint rules). Number of heats would be 3,4 or 6 depending on numbers. This would be like the old elite sprint champs champs. Those running the Elite relay class would be allocated early starts. Also a young junior course.
Followed by Relay as per current rules
First Elite course as a spectator race. Then age class relays an hour later.
Sun:
- KO sprint for open class (top 36 men and to 36 women of whatever age qualify for QF)
- Age class sprint for all classes other than 21s (qualification same as current rules)
- B,C,D,E... age independent open races - entry based on heat position.
- M/W21s knocked out from the KO sprint would run the B/C races to decide minor placings.
- Non 21s knocked out from the KO sprint could be allocated a late start in their age class final.
This means that the organising team has all night to do the complex bit of generating start lists for the finals. Each day can be reasonably short with no need for unpredictable delays between races.
- pete.owens
- diehard
- Posts: 752
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:25 am
Re: British Sprints
Absolutely not to a KO sprint.
1. It's complicated to organise. Very complicated
2. We do not need yet another orienteering format with yet another British championship, area championship, etc etc. There are too many as it is.
3. If you want it, then are you volunteering to organise it?
In the news today: The 6ixty: 60-ball tournament with new rules to launch in Caribbean - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61899721
Yet another pointless reformatting of real cricket....
1. It's complicated to organise. Very complicated
2. We do not need yet another orienteering format with yet another British championship, area championship, etc etc. There are too many as it is.
3. If you want it, then are you volunteering to organise it?
In the news today: The 6ixty: 60-ball tournament with new rules to launch in Caribbean - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61899721
Yet another pointless reformatting of real cricket....
- rf_fozzy
- light green
- Posts: 238
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:13 am
Re: British Sprints
And please please please stop using the word "Elite"
Open class please.
Open class please.
- rf_fozzy
- light green
- Posts: 238
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:13 am
Re: British Sprints
rf_fozzy wrote:Some orienteers need to get out more and do more running races - particularly the big relays - 150 teams (each with 2 runners), including vets etc all barrelling off the start line for the same footpaths...
All with their heads down, reading their map, all wanting to go in different directions soon after the start, all piling into a bottle-neck control fairly soon?! I've done plenty of large mass starts in a variety of sports (the most entertaining being langlauf!), and I find that orienteering tends to the most fraught. But I agree, there's certainly IMO room for more teams at a time, and there's certainly room for much greater simplification of courses.
Absolutely not to a KO sprint.
Agreed.
I'm still most preferring that keep heats/final format, with each class running just one course for the 'heats' and another for the finals.
-
awk - god
- Posts: 3224
- Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:29 pm
- Location: Bradford
Re: British Sprints
awk wrote:All with their heads down, reading their map, all wanting to go in different directions soon after the start, all piling into a bottle-neck control fairly soon?! I've done plenty of large mass starts in a variety of sports (the most entertaining being langlauf!), and I find that orienteering tends to the most fraught. But I agree, there's certainly IMO room for more teams at a time, and there's certainly room for much greater simplification of courses.
Do you mean compared to the seven courses at Leeds or the four courses specified in the rules and offered last year at Skelmersdale?
What do you consider would have been a reasonable maximum mass start at Leeds?
If you had combined 40+, 16- and Ad Hoc (as suggested in the rules that would have been 73). At Skelmersdale there was a steep hill out of the arena to the start kite, a reasonably long open run out, and a gaffled first leg to spread the field a bit. At Leeds, and at Bradford three years ago you were straight into the detailed navigation.
At a national championships catering for all ages from 8 to 80, planning four courses is hardly excessive.
- pete.owens
- diehard
- Posts: 752
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:25 am
Re: British Sprints
If you think holding a British KO sprint for all age cats is a good idea, just read the instructions for the WOC one: https://www.woc2022.dk/wp-content/uploa ... 4-ver2.pdf pages 31-37.
For just two classes: M21 and W21. With a well-defined, limited, number of athletes.
Granted a domestic version would be slightly less info, but not much. And on top there'd be all the usual event info and mapping/terrain info.
Plus just as with BSOC now, there's all the complications of different age cats, different length courses etc etc etc.
It'd be an absolute nightmare to organise.
For just two classes: M21 and W21. With a well-defined, limited, number of athletes.
Granted a domestic version would be slightly less info, but not much. And on top there'd be all the usual event info and mapping/terrain info.
Plus just as with BSOC now, there's all the complications of different age cats, different length courses etc etc etc.
It'd be an absolute nightmare to organise.
- rf_fozzy
- light green
- Posts: 238
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:13 am
Re: British Sprints
I agree with rf_fozzy that a large scale KO Sprint with multiple classes would be a nightmare to organise. You also need an evenly balanced field in terms of physical and technical ability otherwise slower runners get left behind and weaker navigators just tuck in and wait for the sprint finish.
However having watched the discipline develop over recent years from a coaches perspective I think it has a lot to offer with new challenges for the athletes (and coaches) and exciting races for spectators. Perhaps only really works for elite races with limited fields or maybe club training
For those of you who haven't seen a mass start, ungaffled, 8 minute, first past the post , KO Sprint final, I'd recommend watching WOC tomorrow afternoon.
We're planning to do a bit of KO sprint at SYO club night next week so I'm hoping some of the kids will be watching to get some inspiration and ideas!
However having watched the discipline develop over recent years from a coaches perspective I think it has a lot to offer with new challenges for the athletes (and coaches) and exciting races for spectators. Perhaps only really works for elite races with limited fields or maybe club training
For those of you who haven't seen a mass start, ungaffled, 8 minute, first past the post , KO Sprint final, I'd recommend watching WOC tomorrow afternoon.
We're planning to do a bit of KO sprint at SYO club night next week so I'm hoping some of the kids will be watching to get some inspiration and ideas!
To oblivion and beyond....
-
buzz - addict
- Posts: 1197
- Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:45 pm
- Location: Sheffield
Re: British Sprints
rf_fozzy wrote:If you think holding a British KO sprint for all age cats is a good idea,
That wasn't what I suggested - There would be only 2 open KOs (1 for women 1 for men) Age classes other than 21 would be interval starts as they are now.
just read the instructions for the WOC one: https://www.woc2022.dk/wp-content/uploa ... 4-ver2.pdf pages 31-37.
And most of that is because it is WOC rather than a particular format - things such as quarantine arrangemts.
For just two classes: M21 and W21. With a well-defined, limited, number of athletes.
Yes 36 of each - which was the number I suggested.
Though you could reduce that to 24 by sending 3 rather than 2 through from each of the semi finals
Plus just as with BSOC now, there's all the complications of different age cats, different length courses etc etc etc.
Yes, if we are going to have a championship with courses suitable for all ages then that is going to be the case. The KO would replace the M21 & W21 courses.
However, the qualification heats would be simpler, because there would be one length for all women and one length for all men. And the time pressure for allocating start lists for the finals (which is the most challenging thing for the organisers) could be eased by putting those heats before the relay rather on the same day.
- pete.owens
- diehard
- Posts: 752
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:25 am
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Snail and 67 guests