BOC Weekend
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Re: BOC Weekend
Agree this the 'right' solution for the event (as I suggested a few weeks ago on the Juniors thread). A number of people running anything other than the longest course for their age class are probably already those accompanying another family member who is more enthusiastic / competitive. But would they be prepared to pay anything up to about £30 for a colour coded course? I suspect not, so the cost of Championship courses might need to rise a bit further if we still want the same facilities.
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Re: BOC Weekend
Not sure I follow the points about S courses. No extra courses were planned. 20% of the those who entered, ran them. There aren't any prizes for them, so who cares when it increases the entry by 25%. It looks like a win win to me . All of which ignores it's a great chance to meet up, whether fit or decrepit, which certainly wouldn't be the same without the short courses!
I don't feel qualified to comment on the junior B classes except there weren't many juniors entered and only half a dozen who ran B courses were out for a along time.
I don't feel qualified to comment on the junior B classes except there weren't many juniors entered and only half a dozen who ran B courses were out for a along time.
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Re: BOC Weekend
RoT wrote:The courses on both days were too long .
Please expand on this.
Note - The courses will have been planned for the "Best Orienteer" , not the "Best Orienteering who turned up on the day"..
https://ranking.orienteering.org/?ohow=F
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Re: BOC Weekend
I don't feel qualified to comment on the junior B classes except there weren't many juniors entered and only half a dozen who ran B courses were out for a along time.
Cause or effect? If you were an M16 junior were you put off by a daunting 6+km run when you normally do 4km light greens?
But would they be prepared to pay anything up to about £30 for a colour coded course? I suspect not, so the cost of Championship courses might need to rise a bit further if we still want the same facilities.
As I understand it there are no trophies on the S courses so on the one hand there's an argument they should already be cheaper, or on the other hand there are already people willing to pay £30 to run a non-trophy event.
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Re: BOC Weekend
Arnold wrote:Course Winning Times on the individual were between 5-20% over based on my small sample (eg M21E 102 v 90-100 EWT, M45L 80 v 60-70 EWT, W14A 51 v 30-40 EWT). I feel for the planners as this was a completely new area, but they probably overestimated the ability for younger & older competitors to progress through the tough terrain.
The M21E winning time was 2.7% above the range, not between 5 and 20%. The other times, as I tried to show in my previous post, are irrelevant. The rules simply state what winning times are likely to be, BUT the planner is expected to plan to a ratio with the M21E distance. The planner(s) if they were doing their job properly will have simply planned to that ratio, and will have not either 'over' or 'under' estimated younger/older abilities. The distances show that this is what they were (correctly) doing.
graeme wrote:GG's just an M35 running up. Imagine if there'd been a real elite running!
I was going to mention this, but given that GG is currently ranked 4th, and beat the 3rd ranked runner, I thought I shouldn't, especially given that we've had WOC won by an M35! I was also going to mention the 5th place M40...
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Re: BOC Weekend
Having stirred things up with the suggestion that there should be a range of any age courses courses, I should say I certainly wasn't thinking these should be any cheaper. It's still a premier event with all the fixed costs, and (for a once a year event) going for cheaper probably isn't going to improve attendance. These any age courses can be marketed as a quality run in the competitors physical/technical comfort zone. For this reason it probably wouldn't be a good idea to call them 'colour coded' etc or give any hint that they are of lower quality other than there aren't any prizes.
These shorter courses can make the age class courses more attractive to the right types too.... 'Age class courses, the ultimate challenge, test yourself against the best' etc.
For some newbies and juniors, these big events can be quite inspiring. I know of people who seeing elite runners in tough areas at the JK had a completely different (ie more athletic) view of orienteering and orienteers compared to the more visible local country park orienteering, so we need to be offering accessible (non epic) courses for as many of these as possible.
These shorter courses can make the age class courses more attractive to the right types too.... 'Age class courses, the ultimate challenge, test yourself against the best' etc.
For some newbies and juniors, these big events can be quite inspiring. I know of people who seeing elite runners in tough areas at the JK had a completely different (ie more athletic) view of orienteering and orienteers compared to the more visible local country park orienteering, so we need to be offering accessible (non epic) courses for as many of these as possible.
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Re: BOC Weekend
awk wrote:Arnold wrote:Course Winning Times on the individual were between 5-20% over based on my small sample (eg M21E 102 v 90-100 EWT, M45L 80 v 60-70 EWT, W14A 51 v 30-40 EWT). I feel for the planners as this was a completely new area, but they probably overestimated the ability for younger & older competitors to progress through the tough terrain.
The M21E winning time was 2.7% above the range, not between 5 and 20%. The other times, as I tried to show in my previous post, are irrelevant. The rules simply state what winning times are likely to be, BUT the planner is expected to plan to a ratio with the M21E distance. The planner(s) if they were doing their job properly will have simply planned to that ratio, and will have not either 'over' or 'under' estimated younger/older abilities. The distances show that this is what they were (correctly) doing.graeme wrote:GG's just an M35 running up. Imagine if there'd been a real elite running!
I was going to mention this, but given that GG is currently ranked 4th, and beat the 3rd ranked runner, I thought I shouldn't, especially given that we've had WOC won by an M35! I was also going to mention the 5th place M40...
It's probably shorter, it's the best M21E orienteer in the world, not who attends the event.
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Re: BOC Weekend
MrD wrote:It's probably shorter, it's the best M21E orienteer in the world, not who attends the event.
Why do you think that?
AFAIK, no British orienteer has ever run a shorter time in the WOC long than the BOC long winning time that year.
It has always been planned for who shows up, as there's nothing in the rules to suggest otherwise. You (or I) might want it to be otherwise, but don't lets pretend it is.
Last edited by graeme on Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BOC Weekend
awk wrote: given that we've had WOC won by an M35!
We've had WOC won by an M40 (answers on a postcard... )
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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Re: BOC Weekend
The rules for BOC specify expected winning time - so they do depend on who turns up. But that means in theory if the WOC winner enters BOC then M21E (and every other course!) should perhaps be 10% longer.MrD wrote:...It's probably shorter, it's the best M21E orienteer in the world, not who attends the event.
Similarly the Black course for a long distance event is supposed to have a winning time of 67 minutes for an "elite competitor". (It is only if you don't provide a Black course that the courses become based on a "top standard elite competitor"!)
I think there is an implicit assumption that BOC and Black courses will always attract the top British competitors, but not necessarily the absolute world best. It would be less ambiguous if course length guidelines were based on something like the highest person on the BO ranking list, irrespective of whether they actually turn up.
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Re: BOC Weekend
An ex-world champion did turn up to both the BOC Long and TrailO, and won The Elite too!
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Re: BOC Weekend
Snail wrote: It would be less ambiguous if course length guidelines were based on something like the highest person on the BO ranking list, irrespective of whether they actually turn up.
Planning it to Kris or Jonny's anticipated long distance winning time would certainly have shortened the courses a bit.
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Re: BOC Weekend
It's probably shorter, it's the best M21E orienteer in the world, not who attends the event.
It makes no sense to specify the EWT for an orienteer who is not eligible to win the competition - surely it should be the best British orienteer? I note the rules say all EWTs are provided for guidance only, that makes sense weather is clearly a factor but so too is who shows up on the day. If GG had decided to run M35 or been injured / covid isolating would the planner have done a worse job for the M21E course?
I was going to mention this, but given that GG is currently ranked 4th, and beat the 3rd ranked runner, I thought I shouldn't, especially given that we've had WOC won by an M35! I was also going to mention the 5th place M40...
The results of last weekend's race will reorder the rankings a little - but the fact we have sprint, middle, long events probably means that one overall set of rankings are slightly misleading.
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Re: BOC Weekend
Having previously planned BOC Long, I asked that same question, "who is the M21E EWT aimed at".
I don't think I ever got a straight answer but the wording that floated around at the time was "a top ranked M21", which seemed like a decent compromise to me. So not the top ranked orienteer and certainly not the "world's best orienteer", but clearly also not "whoever turns up on the day".
Assuming you agree this is the right approach, then GG still seems like a decent enough proxy for "top ranked M21" to me, so the course was about right if slightly on the long side.
I don't think I ever got a straight answer but the wording that floated around at the time was "a top ranked M21", which seemed like a decent compromise to me. So not the top ranked orienteer and certainly not the "world's best orienteer", but clearly also not "whoever turns up on the day".
Assuming you agree this is the right approach, then GG still seems like a decent enough proxy for "top ranked M21" to me, so the course was about right if slightly on the long side.
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