Which begs the supplementary question as to why British Champs elite courses are using TD3 control sites. I appreciate this is a southern forest with limited detail, but in this case there are four point features to the NE of the ridgeline that have been deemed significant enough to be mapped and it would seem obvious to use a couple of these. Judging by Routegadget there seems to be a preference for siting controls on line features across all courses and all parts of the area so it looks to be deliberate policy. Is this a somewhat extreme take on the "Long courses are about route choice and not control-finding" doctrine or were there other considerations in play?
To be clear, I'm not having a go at the planners who I'm sure had a lot to cope with, but having not been at the event I feel it's at least worthy of discussion.
Patrick
BOC Weekend
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
Re: BOC Weekend
Patrick wrote:… Is this a somewhat extreme take on the "Long courses are about route choice and not control-finding" doctrine or were there other considerations in play?…
Patrick
IMHO route choice is exactly what orienteering is about. Once in the control circle the kite should be easily found. It is supposed to be a running sport although, in many cases, due to the nature of control sites being chosen, it does seem to be morphing into something akin to trail-o.
- blindasabat
- white
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:31 pm
- Location: dunno!
Re: BOC Weekend
Patrick wrote: Is this a somewhat extreme take on the "Long courses are about route choice and not control-finding" doctrine or were there other considerations in play?
Looking at the elite leg...
https://www.boc.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#45&course=1
It's hard to see how this is "about route choice" - the point features you describe open up many more options to the east. Just because they're mappable doesn't make them good features, maybe the controller or planner rejected them, maybe the map isn't great and they wanted something obvious like the top of the spur.
I wasn't there, but I'd been surprised if the veg boundary really ended and turned into an earth bank. Assuming both continue, at 1:15 the mapper has to decide which is more conspicuous
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
-
graeme - god
- Posts: 4726
- Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:04 pm
- Location: struggling with an pɹɐɔ ʇıɯǝ
Re: BOC Weekend
It was an enjoyable weekend’s orienteering, helped by a great arena and commentary.
The courses on both days were too long and given the nature of the terrain it was much more of a physical than technical challenge.
Provision of water on Saturday is gratefully acknowledged and it didn’t run out.
The courses on both days were too long and given the nature of the terrain it was much more of a physical than technical challenge.
Provision of water on Saturday is gratefully acknowledged and it didn’t run out.
- RoT
- orange
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 8:14 am
Re: BOC Weekend
RoT wrote:It was an enjoyable weekend’s orienteering, helped by a great arena and commentary.
The courses on both days were too long and given the nature of the terrain it was much more of a physical than technical challenge.
Provision of water on Saturday is gratefully acknowledged and it didn’t run out.
Agree with that.
The courses were perhaps marginally too long but it was the British Long Champs. It's good sometimes to have a physical challenge rather than a technical one. It is a running sport after all.
Thanks to all who made it happen. I'm hoping the JK organisers have the same weather arranged
-
Homer - diehard
- Posts: 968
- Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:10 pm
- Location: Springfield
Re: BOC Weekend
RoT wrote:The courses on both days were too long and given the nature of the terrain it was much more of a physical than technical challenge.
The individual race was won in 102:42, some 2.7% over the recommended winning time range. That's equivalent to the course needing to be c400m (flat) shorter.
All other course lengths* (apart from the 3 youngest) are defined by their 'ratio' to M21E, eg course 4 (W21E) is at 0.65. That means that all course lengths are dependent on the accuracy in estimating the M2E winning time (this time on an area never used before). 14 of the courses were within +/- 0.01 of that ratio. 2 courses were more than +/-0.02: course 3 at -0.025 and course 8 at +0.022. Approx one-third of courses were below ratio, two-thirds on or above. From experience, I'd say that was pretty good. (*planning course lengths are defined by adjusted formula: 100m climb = 1km flat).
Combining these two factors, the M21E speed being underestimated and the variation in ratios, means that courses ranged from needing to be between 92.8% and 101.2% of their actual lengths to hit the exactly 'correct' lengths. Incidentally, that 92.8% course was #18, where both M75L and W65L winning times were within EWT ranges - so there wasn't actually a 'problem' there anyway (and illustrates the difficulty of achieving 'correct' length courses).
Other factors may well have come into play. Were the courses 'longer' on the day for instance? All in all, I'd say the planner did a decent job - I remember taking hours agonising over possible winning speeds and lengths to try and achieve 'proper' Elite (and thus other course) distances - and then being foiled by a particularly vicious piece of weather!
Of course, there would have been pretty much no issue if GG had simply run 10secs/km faster, bringing the M21E time to within EWT range. I blame him!
-
awk - god
- Posts: 3224
- Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:29 pm
- Location: Bradford
Re: BOC Weekend
Agree, most took longer but not all (didn't see awk's post). Bear in mind since Eunice, events within 70 miles of the BOC have typically been taking anything from just under 5% to 15% longer. Only the 1987 Great Storm has had more of an impact in the last 50 years. It could have been far far worse. The recent Sarum Saunter at Fonthill near Salisbury (dire) and the CSC qualifier at Rushmore near Reading spring to mind.
- maprun
- diehard
- Posts: 685
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:37 am
Re: BOC Weekend
Course Winning Times on the individual were between 5-20% over based on my small sample (eg M21E 102 v 90-100 EWT, M45L 80 v 60-70 EWT, W14A 51 v 30-40 EWT).
It was a similar story for the relay, leg EWT is 32 for A-L excl short, actual WT ranged from 35 to 44 so between 10-25% over.
I feel for the planners as this was a completely new area, but they probably overestimated the ability for younger & older competitors to progress through the tough terrain. I guess on balance it's better to be over than under for the individual, although I'm less sure about the relays - as it is, there are very few competitive teams in the main classes and a huge number in short and ad-hoc, and this year won't have helped that trend. It does anyway feel though that the relay classes need a fundamental overhaul as there are just too few teams now in the majority of classes.
It was a similar story for the relay, leg EWT is 32 for A-L excl short, actual WT ranged from 35 to 44 so between 10-25% over.
I feel for the planners as this was a completely new area, but they probably overestimated the ability for younger & older competitors to progress through the tough terrain. I guess on balance it's better to be over than under for the individual, although I'm less sure about the relays - as it is, there are very few competitive teams in the main classes and a huge number in short and ad-hoc, and this year won't have helped that trend. It does anyway feel though that the relay classes need a fundamental overhaul as there are just too few teams now in the majority of classes.
- Arnold
- diehard
- Posts: 737
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:24 am
Re: BOC Weekend
On a separate note, a big thanks for the logistics side of the event, which was brilliant (helped by the weather, of course). Central car park co located with the finish, start nearby, nice layout for the traders, live results that worked well - tricky to see what could have possibly been done better. Well done and thank you to all involved.
- Arnold
- diehard
- Posts: 737
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:24 am
Re: BOC Weekend
For the individual I suspect most experienced orienteers were expecting a long tough run. Those distances looked long in the final details. Personally I quite like an occasional 2 hour plus epic course, sense of achievement for finishing etc.
For reform I think the various committees should look at B courses. Long B courses are a problem as these are likely to be for people who don't want a 2 hour epic, or for the less experienced. B courses by their nature are very inflexible. For example from memory I think M16B was nearly 6km, which is pretty long for a junior who might only be 14 and not done many TD4 courses. If we want the British Championships to be an inclusive event that the whole club can go to then this is the area to examine. One solution is to have open B courses - say 5 B courses of varying length and technical difficulty where anyone can enter. A bit like colour courses I guess, but more in keeping with the traditions of the event.
For reform I think the various committees should look at B courses. Long B courses are a problem as these are likely to be for people who don't want a 2 hour epic, or for the less experienced. B courses by their nature are very inflexible. For example from memory I think M16B was nearly 6km, which is pretty long for a junior who might only be 14 and not done many TD4 courses. If we want the British Championships to be an inclusive event that the whole club can go to then this is the area to examine. One solution is to have open B courses - say 5 B courses of varying length and technical difficulty where anyone can enter. A bit like colour courses I guess, but more in keeping with the traditions of the event.
- SeanC
- god
- Posts: 2251
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:46 pm
- Location: Kent
Re: BOC Weekend
but they probably overestimated the ability for younger & older competitors to progress through the tough terrain.
M50, M55, M60 Recommended winning time 60-70 minutes.
Actual times 68, 74, 68 minutes respectively.
M65, M70, M75 Recommended winning time 55-65 minutes.
Actual times 61, 61, 62 minutes respectively.
- SJC
- diehard
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:45 am
Re: BOC Weekend
awk wrote:The individual race was won in 102:42, some 2.7% over the recommended winning time range. That's equivalent to the course needing to be c400m (flat) shorter.
Of course, there would have been pretty much no issue if GG had simply run 10secs/km faster, bringing the M21E time to within EWT range. I blame him!
GG's just an M35 running up. Imagine if there'd been a real elite running!
From memory, back when the BOC was a "classic" not a long and the winning times for age classes were specified, they were around 70, getting shorter for the oldest age groups.
Looks to me like the championship distances were fine, people were a tad slow given how hot it was?
SeanC makes a more substantive point: he claims that the "B" courses (meaning S and especially M21A) aren't serving their purpose. I'm not sure what BOF thinks is the purpose of these Short Long Races - the oxymoronic name suggests they didn't think about it much - but I think he has the solution spot-on.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
-
graeme - god
- Posts: 4726
- Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:04 pm
- Location: struggling with an pɹɐɔ ʇıɯǝ
Re: BOC Weekend
graeme wrote:
SeanC makes a more substantive point: he claims that the "B" courses (meaning S and especially M21A) aren't serving their purpose. I'm not sure what BOF thinks is the purpose of these Short Long Races - the oxymoronic name suggests they didn't think about it much - but I think he has the solution spot-on.
Although having run S courses for years (as a lesser mortal) partly to avoid 2hour Long epics, I agree with graeme that S courses for each senior age class at the British LONG championships is a nonsense. That is catered for by something called the British MIDDLE championships!
Putting on a range of colour coded courses at the British Long, as SeanC suggests, should cater for all abilities. And by abandoning S courses you might simplify the organisational workload.
Of course one drawback of such an approach is that the entry for the British Long would quite possibly reduce into the hundreds, as many might might not wish to travel the length of the country for 'only' a colour coded course. Thus impacting on BO revenues from the event.
- RoT
- orange
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 8:14 am
Re: BOC Weekend
Alternatively, if the Colour coded couses were less expensive, the event might get more entries, especially family members?
- Karen
- red
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:50 am
Re: BOC Weekend
Karen wrote:Alternatively, if the Colour coded couses were less expensive, the event might get more entries, especially family members?
This has been an age old dilemma. Put on some shortish technical courses at cheaper prices and people will enter those instead of their age classes. In doing so they are getting most of the benefits of a championship event (hopefully good map/planning/organisation/facilities) at cut price. There just has to be a point at which an event becomes a major championship and simply can't try and cater for everyone.
- NeilC
- addict
- Posts: 1332
- Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:03 am
- Location: SE
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: buzz and 167 guests