Non elite juniors

[forest grump]

As the parent of a first year W18 who isn't really "elite" (her words not mine), and a W16 who isn’t really either, I have been confused so far this year about which course I should enter my eldest child on. There appears to be a lack of consistancy in the distance and course combinations that are used across the multitude of different event types. (BTW this isn't a criticism more of an obervation )

For example…

Scottish O League/Regional colour coded
W18 runs Blue, and is the same course as W20, W35, W40, M16, M55, M60, M35S, M40S.
W18S (there isn’t actually a W18L) runs Short Green and is the same course as W20S, W65, W70, W75, W80, W50S, W55S, W60S, W45S, M75, M80, M70S, M65S. W16 runs Green, so the choice for a W18 is either Blue or Short Green (it isn’t actually as its colour coded and you can run any course you like, but my point is about course/class combinations)

Scottish/UK Urban Leagues
There is no “official” W18 class, it is just Women’s Open (not to be confused with the other type of Women’s Open which is actually a shorter course (e.g. at the JK Sprint)). All W18s have to run with W20s, W21s & W35s or they have to do an “open” class. W16s run with W14s (on a shorter, easier course without crossing roads).

British Night Champs
W18L was 4.5km/160m and the same course as W45L, W50L, W21S, M65L, M18S, M45S & W50S
W18S was 3.5km/105m and the same course as W65L, W70L, W45S, W50S, M75L & M65S.
W16 (no S or L??) was 3.9km/125m and the same course as W55L, W60L, W20S, W35S, W40S, M70L, M55S, M60S. So the choice for a W18 was either a longer course or one shorter than W16

British Middle Distance Champs
W18 (no E, L or S) was 3.8km/105m and was the same course as W20, W50 & M70.
W16 was 3.2km/105m and was the same course as W60 & W65. No choice of course, and all 18s run the same.

British Long Distance Champs
W18L (there is an elite course) is 5.7km/280m and is the same course as M18S, M20S, W20L, W21S.
W18S is 4.1km/155m and is the same course as M80, M75S, M70S, W20S, W55S, W60S, W65S, W75.
W16A is 5.7km/255m and is the same course as M60S & W60L. W16A and W18L run the same distance!
So the choice for a “non-elite” W18 is the same length course as W16A or one shorter

The JK
The course/class combinations seem to be different again for the JK.
Day 1 (Sprint)
The only choice is W18E (which is a WRE) and is 3.3.km/30m, or Women Open 2.6km/15m. W16 is 2.8km/15m. So the only option for a “non-elite” W18 is a course shorter than W16
Day 2 (Middle)
W18L (there is an elite course) is 2.7km/85m and is the same course as M70S, M75L, W18L, W20L, W50S, W55S, W65L.
W18S is 2.5km/75m and is the same course as M75S, M80, W18S, W20S, W21V, W60S, W70L.
W16A is the same course as W18E (3.5km/80m) and is further than W18L
So the choice for a “non-elite” W18 is either elite or a course shorter than W16A
Day 3 (Classic)
W18L (there is an elite course) is 5.1km/185m and is the same course as M18S, M20S, M21V, W20L, W21S
W18S is 3.7km/115m and is the same course as M80, M70S, M75S, W75, W20S, W55S, W60S, W65S, W21V,
W16A is 4.9km/185m and is the same course as M55S and W60L.
So the choice for a “non-elite” W18 is either a longer course or one shorter than W16A

As you can see there appears to be a bit of a mix of the distances and the course/class combinations that are combined for “non-elite” W18s when compared with other age classes and especially when compared to W16s (if you look at W20s it is even more confusing!). I'm sure if you looked at all the other national/regional events you would find the same different mixture of course/class combinations.

I'm sure that there are rules and reasons for this, but it does strike me as slightly odd/confusing that it isn't more standardised and easy to understand, especially when often you have no idea of the course length/class combinations when you enter an event.

[pete.owens]

As the parent of a first year W18 who isn't really "elite" (her words not mine), and a W16 who isn’t really either, I have been confused so far this year about which course I should enter my eldest child on.

Perhaps ask her which course she wants to run - this will depend on how far she likes running whether she wants to compete in an age class competition. Other than major championships she should be able to enter any course - either longer or shorter or easier than that recommended. Certainly don't rule out entering E classes because she doesn't consider herself "elite", rather than the course being too long.

So...
SOL/Colour coded:
Enter whatever course she prefers to run - or if she wants to compete in the SOL enter the recommended course for her age class.

Urban courses:
These work on broader age classes for everyone, but just like at colour coded events you can usually enter whatever course you like if you are not interested in the league. If your younger daughter has passed her 16th birthday she might prefer to run the open course rather than just what can be planned without crossing roads.

British Night Champs:
This is an age class competition so those are the choices. Generally short courses will be two courses down from the long course for the same age - to offer a significant difference hence W18S is shorter than the W16 course.

For 16s and under the normal offer is for A and B courses - where the B course is technically easier rather than just shorter. At the night champs there are no courses below TD5 (and no classes younger than 16) so no course suitable for a B class. However, if she wanted to run a shorter course she would also be eligible to run the W18s course.

British Middle Champs:
Since the courses are much shorter than for long distance champs in the first place there is no need to offer shorter courses. This is particularly the case for juniors where the expected winning time is now 20-25 minutes, rather than 30-35. I'm not sure why there are no B classes for the U16s though.

British Long Champs, JK Classic
The Elite courses are very long - hence the need for shorter courses for those not wanting to be out for hours. It is not surprising that W18L is the same length as W16A since the W18L course is the second course available for 18s, whereas the W16A course will be run by the top 16s. Of course there is nothing to stop her entering the W18E class if she enjoys being out for a long time.

JK Sprint:
Since the courses are so short there is no point in separate short and long classes. You don't have to consider yourself "elite" to enter the W18E class. One issue is that the start list is seeded so a slower W18 is likely to have a very early start which could be an issue if you are travelling a long way. If she doesn't want to run W18E, but wants a longer course than W Open there is another option: M Open.

JK middle
The only reason that there are long and short courses here is that it is a 2 day competition with the same classes used for the long distance courses the next day. This means if you enter an S class you will run a very short course.

[graeme]

A first year W18 who isn't really "elite" (her words not mine), and a W16 who isn’t really either, I have been confused

I've always been confused about why we pretend that the majority of juniors (and 21s) are "elite", just because they run the same course, and who thinks it's a good idea to call them that.

The reason for a mix is that its sensible events to have as small a range of courses as the start block / number of entries allows. Once you have different numbers of courses at different events, mapping to age classes becomes different.

[pete.owens]

I've always been confused about why we pretend that the majority of juniors (and 21s) are "elite", just because they run the same course, and who thinks it's a good idea to call them that.

We don't - the E applies to the course not the competitors who run them. In the same way we don't think that S courses are for orienteers of reduced stature.

[graeme]

we don't think that S courses are for orienteers of reduced stature.

I think you'll find all short courses are also long courses, and the S refers to the class not the course.

[Atomic]

I've experienced something similar to Forest Grump. I don't actually know why we set age requirements at all. It does nothing to encourage 18 y/o who are new to the sport (they should probably run M21N - if there is one, and they knew what it was about!), or 40 y/o who are confident navigators but who aren't fit enough to run (or enjoy running) 10k [that point may particularly be a problem for women returning after having children], and we sometimes see M/W35's (and other ages) "running up" so even if you want an "older" age you might not actually be the best in the age group!

Pete.Owens is right - you can enter virtually all events "out of category" but I don't think it's either obvious to anyone who isn't that experienced that this is the case OR that inviting. Why are there categories if they don't matter. Why have two categories S/L for most if they don't matter. If we want to be a welcoming sport then when old-timers are complaining it's confusing, there's an issue.

I also think there is something very uninviting about the "Elite" label unless you genuinely are in that top group. In fact, if you think about it most of the age category stuff has probably been dreamed up by people who were once in the Elite group - inevitable selection bias of the sort of people who end up at the top of any sport. It really matters to those people that they are competing on a fair basis with their peers. I suspect it matters to many of the rest of us too - but we wouldn't define our peers based on age - perhaps on experience, previous results etc.

[pete.owens]

For the overwhelming majority of events we don't have age classes. The very few which do are major championships so not really relevant for novices. Pretty much every orienteering even does provide a range of courses suitable for all abilities. We cater for young children and their grandparents.

In how many sports would a newcomer even contemplate the possibility of being allowed enter the national championship? So worrying about how inviting the names of classes is at the British Championship to novices is a bit OTT. A race to decide who is the national champion is an inherently elite thing.

Of course the reason we are all allowed to enter is due to being a minority sport. There is always the theoretical possibility that entries could exceed the available number of start slots so the selection process wold need to be applied, excluding lower ranked competitors from an elite class (as nearly happened when the JK was in the Lakes). We would need a huge increase in participation for that to happen for W18s though.

[Atomic]

For the overwhelming majority of events we don't have age classes. The very few which do are major championships so not really relevant for novices. Pretty much every orienteering even does provide a range of courses suitable for all abilities. We cater for young children and their grandparents.

That might be true with local events and so technically accurate in terms of "majority" but its misleading to suggest it is only major championships that have age categories - look at the list ForestGrump posted. There's a lot of series in that list too - so actually there's probably something on most weekends where if you are a W18 you are strongly directed towards either being an elite running Blue, or not and running say Short Green - less distance than you ran as a W16! ForestGrump's been doing the sport for decades and he's confused. I've been doing it for 5+ yrs and I'm confused. I regularly talk to new club members who want to go and try a regional event and are confused by these things. We've made the default behaviour to enter your class - but if your are exceptionally good for your age or exceptionally bad its OK if you want to do something different. There's a portion of the membership questioning that. Telling people they are wrong and you can enter any colour course at almost any event doesn't reflect the way the joining instructions are configured or the reality of what 95% of people do - do we think that most people entering the events coincidentally ended up on the right colour course for their age? or do we think that people who consider registering and see that "their age" is Brown not Green just don't bother?

In how many sports would a newcomer even contemplate the possibility of being allowed enter the national championship? So worrying about how inviting the names of classes is at the British Championship to novices is a bit OTT. A race to decide who is the national champion is an inherently elite thing.

I've no issue with the national championship being an elite thing - I don't know if we actually need 12,14,16,18,20,21,35,40,45,50,55,60,65,70,75 M&W national champions (especially not repeated across Sprint, Middle, Classic, Night, Score etc!)! Afterall - its only really the 21E class that is "really" the prize. However we do have a 21N class - although I rarely see it promoted (and there's no intermediate competitive step from TD3 to TD5 for adults), and why no vetN for all those who only take up orienteering late in life?. Lots of sports have novice classes, lots of sports have tiers or leagues to work your way up to being the elite of the sport. That's not the objection. SOA has just done quite a bit of asking about what we need to do to keep younger people engaged in the sport - I'll be amazed if part of their findings are not make it easier to stay a "hobby runner" rather than an elite. I think that was essentially the point ForestGrump was making - have we got the classes right for the non-elites?

Of course the reason we are all allowed to enter is due to being a minority sport

Sometimes I think we actually quite like being a minority sport, that's why we make it so complex!

The O foundation just spent a load of money on "newcomer retention" - it focussed really on how do we get people to come to local events and join a club. The question then is how do you get those people to attend events beyond their local club - I'd encourage BOF or the O foundation to consider getting mystery shoppers to run a few local events and then try to enter level C and level B events (and why not the JK, British Champs etc too). I am sure it will be enlightening. Or do you think organisers are intentionally trying to put off the less experienced?

There is always the theoretical possibility that entries could exceed the available number of start slots so the selection process would need to be applied, excluding lower ranked competitors from an elite class (as nearly happened when the JK was in the Lakes). We would need a huge increase in participation for that to happen for W18s though.

I think you are looking at the issue back to front. Nobody who is not elite minds if they don't get to run in the elite class. They want to run in an interesting race that's in their physical and technical abilities, all the more interesting if it is against people they know, have run against before, or can somehow judge how well they did.

[pete.owens]

For the overwhelming majority of events we don't have age classes. The very few which do are major championships so not really relevant for novices. Pretty much every orienteering even does provide a range of courses suitable for all abilities. We cater for young children and their grandparents.

That might be true with local events and so technically accurate in terms of "majority" but its misleading to suggest it is only major championships that have age categories - look at the list ForestGrump posted.

No it is true in the sense that it is an accurate representation of the facts.

There's a lot of series in that list too - so actually there's probably something on most weekends where if you are a W18 you are strongly directed towards either being an elite running Blue, or not and running say Short Green - less distance than you ran as a W16!

Perhaps you could point us to a link for details of a forest based regional or national event in the next few weeks where there is a "strong direction" to enter a particular course (and by strong I mean more than a table showing suggested class/course combos for those who are competing in a league.

ForestGrump's been doing the sport for decades and he's confused. I've been doing it for 5+ yrs and I'm confused. I regularly talk to new club members who want to go and try a regional event and are confused by these things.

A long time ago it used to be true that the what you entered at local, district, regional and national events were different.
District and local events would have offered colour coded courses, while you would enter by age your class at national events. To add to the variety at regional events, seniors would enter by age class while juniors would enter classes such as "JW3". People could legitimately claim to be confused.

Now you enter nearly all forest events by colour coded course.
If you like running green courses at local events, and you want to enter a regional or national event - then enter the green course. It is hard to see how that could be made less confusing.

We've made the default behaviour to enter your class - but if your are exceptionally good for your age or exceptionally bad its OK if you want to do something different.

No we haven't - just look at the results from a regional or national event. Now a fair number of orienteers do value age class based leagues. And in order for that to work there has to be a nominated course for that competition, but when you enter an event you enter by course NOT by age class - it is only if you are interested in competing in the league that you have to go to the trouble of looking up which course to run.

There's a portion of the membership questioning that. Telling people they are wrong and you can enter any colour course at almost any event doesn't reflect the way the joining instructions are configured or the reality of what 95% of people do - do we think that most people entering the events coincidentally ended up on the right colour course for their age?

Well a lot of orienteers do like age class competition - and the class course combos are chosen to match the sort of lengths that competitors of that age tend to prefer running. So there is likely to be a correlation. It is certainly nothing like 95%. Actually I doubt you would be able to detect much difference in the distribution of ages to courses at an event that was part of the Scottish O League to one that wasn't.

or do we think that people who consider registering and see that "their age" is Brown not Green just don't bother?

No I think that they enter the course that they want to enter. There will be some pull factor the other way in that some people will make a greater effort to attend an event because it is part of league - and thus has age class recommendations.

[graeme]

In how many sports would a newcomer even contemplate the possibility of being allowed enter the national championship? So ...

You make it sound like a rhetorical question, but in fact most long distance running sports welcome newcomers to the National Championships. Marathons, cross country, fell running, basically everything that isn't constrained by limited physical space of the playing area. And, it works well: these are big, exciting events which are fun to be a part of.

This weekend, I'm planning a World Ranking Event, Mr Grump and his daughters are coming and there's a group of 100 newcomers from "Active Schools" coming too. Hopefully they'll have fun in the woods and enjoy the experience of a "proper" sport!

[forest grump]

I don't actually know why we set age requirements at all. It does nothing to encourage 18 y/o who are new to the sport (they should probably run M21N - if there is one, and they knew what it was about!), or 40 y/o who are confident navigators but who aren't fit enough to run (or enjoy running) 10k [that point may particularly be a problem for women returning after having children], and we sometimes see M/W35's (and other ages) "running up" so even if you want an "older" age you might not actually be the best in the age group!

I think I've come to the conclusion that you are right. For regional events trying to shoe horn in super fit, not so fit, just back for injury, technically competent, less technically competent & first timers into all the courses & classes you might need is never going to work satisfactorily for everyone. It almost makes sense to have a TD1/2 long, medium & short, a TD3/4 long, medium & short and a TD5 long, medium & short (so 9 courses) and do away with colours completely (which no newcomer understands anyway).

For the "major" events, Why do we need to have so many age classes and distances?? For the adult courses (which are all TD5 anyway) Open, 40+ 55+, 65+ & 75+ (short, medium & long) is fine. These can double up (e.g. 55+ long can be the same as 40+ medium). For the Junior courses 12-, 14- and 16- is probably enough, and have TD1/2 long, medium, short, a TD3/4 long, medium, short. Again there can be doubling up. Anyone can run any course upwards, but if you want to "win" your class you have to run the hardest/longest course BUT at least you know (when you are entering) what you have signed up for (unlike now when "cheap" entries usually close before any details of course lengths/climb & class combinations etc. have been published).

I know it's radical, but just look at the entries for the British. THE premier event

W16A - 29
W16B - 1
W18E - 12
W18L - 4
W18S - 2
W20E - 7
W20L - 0
W20S - 0

If that isn't a cry for a change in approch I'm not sure what is

[NeilC]

When we put together the rules for the combined British Sprint Champs back in 2010 it was decided that the 18s/20s/21s would all be grouped together in an open class. That lasted about 10 years before in 2021 it was split into three individual classes - market forces in action perhaps? As it happens the best performing M18 chose to run in the open - one of the reasons why they were combined in the first place. The other being to give the top juniors more experience of the sort of competition (particularly in the heats) they were likely to encounter at JWOC (at that time more podiums was part of the BOF MP3 mantra).

[Atomic]

Perhaps you could point us to a link for details of a forest based regional or national event in the next few weeks where there is a "strong direction" to enter a particular course (and by strong I mean more than a table showing suggested class/course combos for those who are competing in a league.

Well you might think a table of class/course combos is not a strong direction but if its not very conspicuous that you don't need to stick to them I'd call that a strong indication. In my experience probably 90% of people run in the correct class (or maybe "up") - either that's because you are right and everything is hunky dory or its because we scare off people who don't want to run their class (or force them to do something out their comfort zone - and so less likely to come back).

Here's the JK - next month - https://thejk.org.uk/data/jk/79a9b4e8db ... 2f38e6.pdf the UK's largest event (so its about participation numbers not just the trophy) and I can't find anywhere telling you you are free to enter TD5 courses that are not your own class. On day 1 (which is where Forest Grump started this) the M/W18's are only listed as M/W18E - you have to do some mental gymnastics to work out that M/Wopen category is shorter if you are not an elite and you should run "up" as a senior!

Here's the next UKOL: https://www.newcastleorienteering.org.u ... g-day-3-2/. I read the section "courses" as saying if you don't want to run your own age class you can only run Wh/Yel/Or/Gn - i.e. you can't run the equivalent of short green, blue, brown etc.

This UKOL one is probably slightly better worded: https://www.northern-navigators.org.uk/ ... 20422.html : "To be competitive in the UKOL you must enter the course for your age class." that might make sense to those of us in the sport - but I assure you that many people read that as "to compete in a UKOL event you must enter the course for your age class". I suspect the E/L/S add more confusion than it solves - if anyone can run any class and the serious medals are for the L or E course why bother with the others.

A far better way of wording the current approach would be:
"Please enter the course that suits your experience and abilities. UKOL points will be awarded to participants running on the course that corresponds to their age, however anyone can enter any course if they are not seeking UKOL points".

No we haven't - just look at the results from a regional or national event

I have - I regularly notice this because I'm one of the people who runs out of class (and feels like I'm "cheating") for an old fart like me its irrelevant. For an M/W18 I suspect its more important that they feel like they are entering the right class. So back to Grump's daughters his eldest can enter the supposed Elite class, or the Short class which is shorter than her younger sister and shorter than she would have been running last year as a W16.

Now you enter nearly all forest events by colour coded course.
If you like running green courses at local events, and you want to enter a regional or national event - then enter the green course. It is hard to see how that could be made less confusing.

What if I run the Blue course at my local events (the longest there is) come "mid pack" and my age category is equivalent to Brown - should I run the M40 class or the Green? Or can I run the M50 class that is equivalent to Blue. I know the answer after 5 years - just enter the course you want and ignore everything else, but I learned that the hard way! And that's before we touch on the difference between a "local green" and a regional one - but that's a point for the Controlling thread.

Well a lot of orienteers do like age class competition

How do we know that? nobody has ever asked me. More importantly nobody has ever asked people who come to local events but never enter bigger events. I suspect people like competing against people of similar technical and physical ability. Personally I have a few names I benchmark myself against - and for ranking point events use them as a guide to see if I am getting better or worse against myself. Age categories always create artificial changes as people suddenly move in/out of categories. In some ways its worse at the junior end - someone who's M16 and progressed through White, Yelllow, Orange, Light Green over 6+ yrs is a totally different athlete from one who had only been orienteering for 18 months. How can we attract new people to the sport if it will take 3 years to build the skills to compete sensibly and competition is by age rather than experience. I think the thrust of the opening post is how can we expect non-elite juniors to stay interested when we don't seem to have well thought our or promoted "pathways" for them. I'm just extending that thought to say it probably applies to everyone who hasn't been orienteering since punchcards too...

It is certainly nothing like 95%. Actually I doubt you would be able to detect much difference in the distribution of ages to courses at an event that was part of the Scottish O League to one that wasn't.

I'm pretty sure it is >90% at the events/classes I've entered (or as a minimum <10% of people are "running down"). If I get time I'll maybe analyse some events although its harder to find events with a full range of colours that aren't part of a league.

Frankly this is the sort of stuff I hoped the newcomer retention group were going to tackle - but they were focussed on how to get "come and try" to "member" rather than "run locally to run regularly".

[Len]

This all reads like a repeat of the discussions from a couple of months ago.

Simplify courses, especially at major events, and remove recommendations except from the webpages for the actual league, rather than the event itself.

A table of suggested or recommended courses is a strong indication by definition.

Personally I'd stop using the word 'elite' too but suspect that is too engrained in orienteering already.

All controls score courses are a great idea.

[spitalfields]

Well a lot of orienteers do like age class competition

How do we know that? nobody has ever asked me. More importantly nobody has ever asked people who come to local events but never enter bigger events. I suspect people like competing against people of similar technical and physical ability.

I agree. For newcomers and the less competitively-minded, it's more likely they will find their own benchmarks based on physical and technical ability. When my son was a junior, his favourite type of event was a club score as that meant he was on the same course as a Super Vet woman whom he had identified as being the sort of orienteer he aspired to be- technically strong, despite not being the physically fastest. He took great interest in her choice of controls, and considered himself to have done well if he'd made a similar course selection and chosen a similar route. In contrast, he disliked age-class events, which were always dominated by the fastest runners, something he isn't and has no aspiration to be.

I think it's interesting that he's still involved in the sport, whereas at least half of his age-group peers haven't been seen at an event for ages- in at least two cases we know for a fact that they were disheartened by mistakes when moving up the TDs or into 'proper' vs local TD5 terrain, felt they were no longer competitive so decided to focus on a different sport.

I've had many conversations over the years with people who are intrigued by orienteering, but are put off my the implication that they 'should' be on a course that is well beyond their current ability. It's all well and good saying people can run whatever course they want, but it takes a well above-average level of self-confidence to be happy being the only M21 on a Short Green. Given that it's the 21s-40s that really need to be recruited into the sport, that's a problem.

Is there a solution that would feel more accessible to the less experienced, but without upsetting a large proportion of established orienteers? I really don't know.

Frankly this is the sort of stuff I hoped the newcomer retention group were going to tackle - but they were focussed on how to get "come and try" to "member" rather than "run locally to run regularly".

There are multiple issues that need to be considered, and I've no problem with focussing on one aspect at a time. That said, I do think that there's a distinct lack within orienteering of identifying the right questions that need to be answered. It doesn't matter how much effort is put into finding answers, if you haven't yet identified the right questions.

For me, the biggest frustration is the lack of clear strategy on who the target markets are for recruitment. It always seems to default to children. I'm not saying children shouldn't be a target market, but the reality is they have many calls on their time and the challenges of retention during the transition to adulthood are many.

BOF appear to be looking at marginalised groups, which is a worthy workstream, though the cynic in me thinks it's more about chasing funding than about any real commitment to creating a successful pathway through the many logistical and financial challenges of becoming a regular orienteer.

I'm always struck by the number of orienteers I speak to who first entered the sport in their late 30s or early 40s. And yet there's hardly ever any focus on actively recruiting this age group (except as parent tag-alongs, which has its own issues), and I've never seen any explicit pathway for this group. Those who are happy to rub along, work things out for themselves and do their own thing are warmly welcomed, but we don't make it easy for them.

In my view, the problem with a lack of proper strategic leadership is that you end up with lots of situations where individual clubs do their own thing. This often leads to good outcomes locally, but increases the jeopardy when people start to dip their toe into the idea of travelling further afield. 'Non-elite juniors' are, I suspect, just a subset of the potential market for orienteering who are poorly served by the structures designed by those with survivor bias.