I've been reading quite a few final details recently and it strikes me quite how bossy they generally are.
There will NOT be entry on the day
You MUST carry a whistle
Cars WON'T be allowed to leave before 12.30
You HAVE been warned...
I understand much important info must be conveyed, and people don't always read it, so some form of insistence on the main points might help.
But reading the final details doesn't generally fill me with joy about the upcoming event - more with a bit of dread about what I might or might not be allowed to do.
Do others feel the same? Does it matter?
Bossy final details
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Re: Bossy final details
I agree this sort of language is unnecessary.
Does it put people off? I guess there is survivor bias as this form of language is common in event details for as long as I can remember, and most experienced orienteers are used to it and don't notice it/don't care/ignore.
My opinion without any evidence is I think it probably does put new orienteers off, and those progressing from more friendly local events to regionals. These are the people we need to nurture of course.
Lots of event details are cut and paste from previous ones so it's probably a good exercise to rewrite phrases in a more welcoming way.
One I see a lot which grates when I think about it, is use of the word "sharp". For example "you must report to download by 2pm sharp". "The mass start will be at 10am, sharp". It gives an image of someone shouting at a competitor for being 1 minute late after a 3 hour epic first blue course, or stuck in traffic getting there. Generally that couldn't be further from the real life welcome, so it's a shame that the abrupt language gives such a wrong impression.
Does it put people off? I guess there is survivor bias as this form of language is common in event details for as long as I can remember, and most experienced orienteers are used to it and don't notice it/don't care/ignore.
My opinion without any evidence is I think it probably does put new orienteers off, and those progressing from more friendly local events to regionals. These are the people we need to nurture of course.
Lots of event details are cut and paste from previous ones so it's probably a good exercise to rewrite phrases in a more welcoming way.
One I see a lot which grates when I think about it, is use of the word "sharp". For example "you must report to download by 2pm sharp". "The mass start will be at 10am, sharp". It gives an image of someone shouting at a competitor for being 1 minute late after a 3 hour epic first blue course, or stuck in traffic getting there. Generally that couldn't be further from the real life welcome, so it's a shame that the abrupt language gives such a wrong impression.
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Re: Bossy final details
Some things like this have to be said; for example, if it has been decided that carrying a cagoule is compulsory then competitors need to know that it isn't just advice.
Here are some similar examples from road race final instructions (where you might expect a significant number of first timers). Are they better? Worse?
Adults and children should follow the directions of Marshals at all times for the safety of all. The wearing of headphones is forbidden as per UKA rules for races on public roads. Anyone who wears headphones risks disqualification.
Do not part in the streets around *** as this causes problems in the early stages of the route (potential for damage to occur) and inconveniences local residents. Roads to avoid are – ************* – we have asked residents not to park on these roads so do not want competitors to either.
Music players. UK Athletics bans the use of earphones during races on unclosed roads. You are running on open roads: you must be able to hear and abide by the directions of the marshals and be continually aware of the traffic situation. If you are seen wearing earphones, you will be disqualified.
Please arrive at the car park well before 10.00 as it will be difficult to access once the races have started. Please note that the car park closes and will be locked at 14:00.
Here are some similar examples from road race final instructions (where you might expect a significant number of first timers). Are they better? Worse?
Adults and children should follow the directions of Marshals at all times for the safety of all. The wearing of headphones is forbidden as per UKA rules for races on public roads. Anyone who wears headphones risks disqualification.
Do not part in the streets around *** as this causes problems in the early stages of the route (potential for damage to occur) and inconveniences local residents. Roads to avoid are – ************* – we have asked residents not to park on these roads so do not want competitors to either.
Music players. UK Athletics bans the use of earphones during races on unclosed roads. You are running on open roads: you must be able to hear and abide by the directions of the marshals and be continually aware of the traffic situation. If you are seen wearing earphones, you will be disqualified.
Please arrive at the car park well before 10.00 as it will be difficult to access once the races have started. Please note that the car park closes and will be locked at 14:00.
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Re: Bossy final details
Final details should be concise and focus on informing competitors of exactly what you need to bring, what time you need to turn up, and any special rules so you can plan your day. Too often it involves printing out long multi-page waffle filled documents, which you have to wade through in fine detail to extract the critical nuggets of information.
If there are things that competitors need to do or not do for the smooth running of the event or for safety then that needs to be spelled clearly and unambiguously (aka "bossy"). If we are told in no uncertain terms exactly what is expected of us that gives us greater confidence to do the right thing when we turn up at an event.
If there is No EOD and I have not entered then it is rather frustrating to read though several pages telling me how wonderful the area is in order to discover that.
If the car park is at the end of a long narrow track then anyone arriving late or leaving early is going to cause a big problem - If we are told that we know to build in contingency.
If there is required equipment or clothing I want to know that when I am packing - not when I get to the start and an official checks.
If there are things that competitors need to do or not do for the smooth running of the event or for safety then that needs to be spelled clearly and unambiguously (aka "bossy"). If we are told in no uncertain terms exactly what is expected of us that gives us greater confidence to do the right thing when we turn up at an event.
If there is No EOD and I have not entered then it is rather frustrating to read though several pages telling me how wonderful the area is in order to discover that.
If the car park is at the end of a long narrow track then anyone arriving late or leaving early is going to cause a big problem - If we are told that we know to build in contingency.
If there is required equipment or clothing I want to know that when I am packing - not when I get to the start and an official checks.
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Re: Bossy final details
Pete: I think you just need better headings in your final details so you can skip to the bits that matter to you (unless you're talking about multi-day events, I agree these can be mammoth).
I think instructions can be spun in a way that is concise, friendly and helps sell the events to newbies.
For example: "you must report to download by 2pm sharp"
"We will ensure everyone is back safely, and launch a search party if we need to. Please visit download by 2pm so we know you are safe".
Rather like the UKA example, this is explaining why rather than just shouting an order.
I think instructions can be spun in a way that is concise, friendly and helps sell the events to newbies.
For example: "you must report to download by 2pm sharp"
"We will ensure everyone is back safely, and launch a search party if we need to. Please visit download by 2pm so we know you are safe".
Rather like the UKA example, this is explaining why rather than just shouting an order.
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Re: Bossy final details
SeanC wrote:For example: "you must report to download by 2pm sharp"
One sentence - tells you what you are supposed to do. Though Ive never actually seen that wording - usually it will be more like "Courses close at 1:30. You MUST download even if you retire"
"We will ensure everyone is back safely, and launch a search party if we need to. Please visit download by 2pm so we know you are safe".
A paragraph (with 4 times the wordcount) about procedures the organisers may follow in the case of missing competitors - so easy for the competitor to skip the bit that applies to them (or think only applies to them if they get lost). Surround every instruction by unnecessary verbiage and you end up with pages of text which the competitor has to print (at their own expense) and plough through to find the instructions that apply to them.
Also "Please visit download" is only as strongly worded as "Please visit the junior squad cake stall". There needs to be strong emphasis on the things competitors must and must not do. These are instructions - so are will inevitably sound bossy.
- pete.owens
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Re: Bossy final details
I fear we will have to disagree on our philosophy here Pete. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the newbies, many of whom will see use of capitals as shouting = unfriendly = perhaps they should spend their life doing something more pleasant.
- SeanC
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Re: Bossy final details
It's often hard to find the information you need from final details and important details can get buried. Sometimes risk assessments can be to blame as they encourage you to think about every detail and sometimes lose sight of the important, event specific, issues.
Details can also be bloated by standard stuff about risk assessments, insurance and taking part at your own risk, which organisers include to cover themselves but is of no value to the competitor unless some incident occurs during the event.
It seems to me that there are different audiences for example novices need more explanation than experienced orienteers - for example telling an experienced orienteer to take care at dangerous crags is pointless, but showing a novice orienteer what the large crag symbol looks like, which is the top side and suggesting that they don't go near it is more helpful.
Also whoever is responsible for things like entries and travel needs different information to other competitors, try persuading kids to read through final details to pick up safety or course info - I suspect most parents either don't bother or sift it out for them.
I'd suggest structuring the details more, keeping important/useful stuff up front and separating out standard text, for example:
Perhaps BOF could provide templates for the standard stuff.
Details can also be bloated by standard stuff about risk assessments, insurance and taking part at your own risk, which organisers include to cover themselves but is of no value to the competitor unless some incident occurs during the event.
It seems to me that there are different audiences for example novices need more explanation than experienced orienteers - for example telling an experienced orienteer to take care at dangerous crags is pointless, but showing a novice orienteer what the large crag symbol looks like, which is the top side and suggesting that they don't go near it is more helpful.
Also whoever is responsible for things like entries and travel needs different information to other competitors, try persuading kids to read through final details to pick up safety or course info - I suspect most parents either don't bother or sift it out for them.
I'd suggest structuring the details more, keeping important/useful stuff up front and separating out standard text, for example:
- A brief friendly welcome and introduction to the event, just a few lines.
A summary of the important/unusual/useful event specific details at the top - read this if you read nothing stuff. 10 or so one sentence bullets at most in a frame with any important bits in (shouty) bold.
A link to a separate page/document for novices that describes standard safety, kit, protocols etc get your map at the start, reporting to download, use of whistle, clothing requirements/advice - a small legend of potentially dangerous features and forbidden to cross features, etc..
A link to a separate pages/documents with specific safety/protocols - e.g. Covid measures.
Standard competitor information - distances/timings, course, terrain, map, facilities, etc.
Travel and parking details (further down as not everyone in the group needs to know)
Entries information (perhaps more prominent in pre-event details)
Acknowledgements Contacts
Etc...
A link to a separate standard terms and conditions page with the small print.
Perhaps BOF could provide templates for the standard stuff.
Last edited by buzz on Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bossy final details
Based on Peter Hart’s latest email, changing facilities need to be included in final details…
- Len
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Re: Bossy final details
Why do we even need "Final Details"?
Often these are a PDF (which is almost imposssible to read on a phone screen) and they are frequently published several days prior to the event.
Why leave it until the last minute to advise people about important stuff?
The club website should be kept up to date with all the details all the time.
Publish as much as you know as soon as you know it.
That way people get used to checking the website, and then if on Friday night when the car park is flooded or there is some other important bit of information that people need to know about they will see it.
Otherwise they download the PDF and never visit the website again.
If they want printed details they can just print the web page.
I've seen many occasions where the final details PDF contains different information to the website, if you only maintain one instance of the details you remove the risk of conflicting information.
Often these are a PDF (which is almost imposssible to read on a phone screen) and they are frequently published several days prior to the event.
Why leave it until the last minute to advise people about important stuff?
The club website should be kept up to date with all the details all the time.
Publish as much as you know as soon as you know it.
That way people get used to checking the website, and then if on Friday night when the car park is flooded or there is some other important bit of information that people need to know about they will see it.
Otherwise they download the PDF and never visit the website again.
If they want printed details they can just print the web page.
I've seen many occasions where the final details PDF contains different information to the website, if you only maintain one instance of the details you remove the risk of conflicting information.
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Re: Bossy final details
We publish final details -
a) because they are final - once you have them you can make detailed plans for the day.
b) because they put the important stuff you need to know in one place (ideally on one sheet of paper that you can print and take with you)
c) because they can be checked for accuracy
Yes, there will be information on the website, but that is inherently provisional and changes from time to time. To start with it might just be a date so you can mark it in your diary. Later it will have promotional information - pretty colour photos, description of the terrain enticing segments of the map, links to routegadget for previous events, touristy stuff about the local area; the sort of stuff that would be included on a flyer. Then it will involve to give sufficient information to enter - thing such as a list of courses, start windows, links to entry system, perhaps links to a description of the colour coded system, what orienteering is about, related events, course/class combinations for competitions/leagues.
You now have a shed load of information spread over several pages - none of it needed on the day.
Now, as you get closer to the event and things start to get finalised you will start to put details on such as provisional course lengths, approximate distance to the start, car parking and assembly arrangements, start lists, call-up procedures. This is all useful stuff to know - so putting it up on the web as soon as you have a good idea is useful. But it is still provisional. What is more it is all mixed in with all the other stuff on the website, possibly in an obscure location following several hyperlinks. Repeatedly, ploughing through it al following every link just to spot if something has changed really is not going to work - it is also difficult for the organiser to keep track of. On big sites for multi-day events it is often difficult to locate the page particular bits of information are and you end up following hyperlinks round in circles.
So at some point close to the event you need to make detailed plans - what to pack, when to set off in the morning, what specific things to do when you get there. You need all the important detail (and only the important detail) in one place, to know that it is accurate and (barring emergency) is not going to change.
a) because they are final - once you have them you can make detailed plans for the day.
b) because they put the important stuff you need to know in one place (ideally on one sheet of paper that you can print and take with you)
c) because they can be checked for accuracy
Yes, there will be information on the website, but that is inherently provisional and changes from time to time. To start with it might just be a date so you can mark it in your diary. Later it will have promotional information - pretty colour photos, description of the terrain enticing segments of the map, links to routegadget for previous events, touristy stuff about the local area; the sort of stuff that would be included on a flyer. Then it will involve to give sufficient information to enter - thing such as a list of courses, start windows, links to entry system, perhaps links to a description of the colour coded system, what orienteering is about, related events, course/class combinations for competitions/leagues.
You now have a shed load of information spread over several pages - none of it needed on the day.
Now, as you get closer to the event and things start to get finalised you will start to put details on such as provisional course lengths, approximate distance to the start, car parking and assembly arrangements, start lists, call-up procedures. This is all useful stuff to know - so putting it up on the web as soon as you have a good idea is useful. But it is still provisional. What is more it is all mixed in with all the other stuff on the website, possibly in an obscure location following several hyperlinks. Repeatedly, ploughing through it al following every link just to spot if something has changed really is not going to work - it is also difficult for the organiser to keep track of. On big sites for multi-day events it is often difficult to locate the page particular bits of information are and you end up following hyperlinks round in circles.
So at some point close to the event you need to make detailed plans - what to pack, when to set off in the morning, what specific things to do when you get there. You need all the important detail (and only the important detail) in one place, to know that it is accurate and (barring emergency) is not going to change.
- pete.owens
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Re: Bossy final details
One item I have noticed is frequently not available until Final details (after entries have closed) is whether or not SIAC is enabled. This would be useful pre-entry for those of us who have 2 generations of SI card.
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Re: Bossy final details
pete.owens wrote:We publish final details -
a) because they are final - once you have them you can make detailed plans for the day.
Except that they are often not final, spmetimes there is version 2, version 3 and you are not sure which version you already have.
pete.owens wrote:b) because they put the important stuff you need to know in one place (ideally on one sheet of paper that you can print and take with you)
Like a webpage that can be accesed on your phone at any time and contain any late changes.
pete.owens wrote:c) because they can be checked for accuracy
Why can't a webpage be checked for accuracy?
I also accept that not all websites are created equal, and some are better at keeping the information well organised and not spread across multiple pages. Clubs just need to more disciplined in presenting the information.
Final Details are often very lengthy with loads of irrelevant stuff and a confused presentation.
Many people no longer own a printer, so having the latest full details on a website that can be referenced anytime, anywhere (signal allowing) may be more convienient that a printed copy that they can't produce.
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Re: Bossy final details
I might not be typical, but I just skip over all the shouting, underline and multi coloured text to find the bits I need: the car park location and course length. Mostly because I'm working out where the event is at 10pm the evening before, or sometimes at 8.50am on the day of the event.
I'm sure all good organisers would use more reliable ways to communicate critical but unusual bits of information, such as a start announcement (eg notices about fence crossings at Sunday's Balcombe event which were announced at the start).
Unfortunately the people that will read final details cover to cover are new and inexperienced orienteers , the ones most likely to be put off by an abrupt shouty style. Using a more web like format with links for newbies for information such as how to do SI punching, what to do at the finish etc sounds like a good idea as that makes it short and simple for experienced people but with the (hopefully kindly written) more detailed information available by hyperlinks for those that need it.
Thumbs up to MV for putting a link to a previous map from RouteGadget on their final details for this Sunday. A previous map really helps the newbies IMHO.
I'm sure all good organisers would use more reliable ways to communicate critical but unusual bits of information, such as a start announcement (eg notices about fence crossings at Sunday's Balcombe event which were announced at the start).
Unfortunately the people that will read final details cover to cover are new and inexperienced orienteers , the ones most likely to be put off by an abrupt shouty style. Using a more web like format with links for newbies for information such as how to do SI punching, what to do at the finish etc sounds like a good idea as that makes it short and simple for experienced people but with the (hopefully kindly written) more detailed information available by hyperlinks for those that need it.
Thumbs up to MV for putting a link to a previous map from RouteGadget on their final details for this Sunday. A previous map really helps the newbies IMHO.
- SeanC
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Re: Bossy final details
Why can't a webpage be checked for accuracy?
It can but often multiple people have access so you do run the risk of people trying to be helpful and tinkering with something after it has been approved, web pages lend themselves to information being fragmented and that's harder to review and check. Equally in many clubs the organiser does not have rights to edit web pages. Emailing something in finished form to someone who does (or even to all competitors) is easier than sending a bunch of stuff that may end up poorly formatted. And a later version update is easier than narrating, "can you edit this bit" and "oh that bit needs to change too". We often highlight any late changes in yellow so easy to find, and of course that is possible on the web too - but not everyone has that knowledge.
I think actually very few people give you feedback on final details, either good or bad. Controllers some time review them - but from a technical accuracy rather than style perspective.Clubs just need to more disciplined in presenting the information.
do people have problems with the PDF? I've always found it was handy (no signal required, saved on my phone).Many people no longer own a printer, so having the latest full details on a website that can be referenced anytime, anywhere (signal allowing) may be more convienient that a printed copy that they can't produce.
Personally I'd like to see final instructions emailed to people who have pre-enterred, and I think they should really be 72h before the event unless there is a late update. I have more of an issue with Start Times not being allocated until 24h before the event which I've seen recently. That makes it hard to arrange car sharing, plan other things you might want to do etc. As an organiser I suspect that is because lots of competitors are difficult and chop and change plans up to the last minute and we try to be too helpful - if final details are coming across as Bossy, reflect for a minute, is that a sign that competitors are consistently trying the patience of Organisers?
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