Should winning times be the same for women and men at major events in Foot Orienteering - or remain different?
Please share your thoughts in the survey for all orienteers as described in this article:
https://orienteering.sport/gender-equality-at-iof-events-have-your-say/?fbclid=IwAR2rjeVgsvhXl372oA0QiKPHW6aAtVDl9xycX24ZDw-hwQHHSL250Fihejs
This has an impact for all - if IOF rules change, then national federation rules are likely to follow, and this includes WMOC!
IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
gg wrote:if IOF rules change, then national federation rules are likely to follow, and this includes WMOC!
It would be nice if older age classes could have long courses that are actually long as well. I am not convinced that stamina magically declines by 30% when one goes from being an M21 to an M35.
I imagine that there is probably an age after which a 100-minute winning time is genuinely less appealing, but given the number of V50s running marathons I suspect that age may be somewhat higher than orienteering currently sets it.
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Scott - god
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
That is a different question, but also interesting! Would it start with IOF changing WMOC, or national federations? Question for a different thread anyway...
- gg
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
I managed to express a preference on the survey for longer vets courses by ticking "other" under the "If the winning times at WMOC are equal, should they..." question and writing in my thoughts.
But agreed, I certainly wouldn't want 'proper long races for vets' to stand in the way of equalising the men's and women's winning times within an age class.
But agreed, I certainly wouldn't want 'proper long races for vets' to stand in the way of equalising the men's and women's winning times within an age class.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
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Scott - god
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
Surely a question solely for the ladies?
Will it effect men? OR are they proposing to reduce the men's time to meet the ladies?
Will it effect men? OR are they proposing to reduce the men's time to meet the ladies?
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LostAgain - diehard
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
LostAgain wrote:Will it effect men? OR are they proposing to reduce the men's time to meet the ladies?
That's one of the things they're consulting on. If they decide to equalise the winning times they could do it by making the women's winning time longer, or by making the men's winning time shorter, or by doing both and meeting somewhere in the middle.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
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Scott - god
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
This topic has made me think about things again. For cross country running, the female distances are shorter, and there have been several consultations about equalising them.
I was formerly of the view that male and female distances should be equal. After all, its hardly like female athletes are incapable of running the longer distances. I imagined putting myself in the position of a (male) event organiser. Imagine the the social media storm if I dared to suggest that female athletes couldn't run as far. They might faint or something! I digress.
But the subject of this proposal made me think again. If a race is any arbitrary time, then the distance and height gain for that will depend on the proposed course and athletes. Therefore, if the race lasts for 30 minutes or 90 minutes, then the distance and elevation should be adapted to the athletes who are competing.
Therefore a shorter distance for female athletes is fair.
I was formerly of the view that male and female distances should be equal. After all, its hardly like female athletes are incapable of running the longer distances. I imagined putting myself in the position of a (male) event organiser. Imagine the the social media storm if I dared to suggest that female athletes couldn't run as far. They might faint or something! I digress.
But the subject of this proposal made me think again. If a race is any arbitrary time, then the distance and height gain for that will depend on the proposed course and athletes. Therefore, if the race lasts for 30 minutes or 90 minutes, then the distance and elevation should be adapted to the athletes who are competing.
Therefore a shorter distance for female athletes is fair.
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
Scott wrote:gg wrote:if IOF rules change, then national federation rules are likely to follow, and this includes WMOC!
It would be nice if older age classes could have long courses that are actually long as well. I am not convinced that stamina magically declines by 30% when one goes from being an M21 to an M35.
I imagine that there is probably an age after which a 100-minute winning time is genuinely less appealing, but given the number of V50s running marathons I suspect that age may be somewhat higher than orienteering currently sets it.
That's not 100% comparable. The terrain has a fairly major effect on performance. A road marathon takes a lot less strength, power and flexibility than a 100 minute orienteering race. People lose power, strengthen and flexibility as they age so this has a bigger effect in orienteering than in road racing.
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
Agreed, alarmingly so! At the JK Middle Race on Windmill Hill in 2019 where it was runnable with moderate brashings and steep slopes, there was a marked contrast between M16s and M60s routes on the same course, with the youngsters going straight and the oldies often going 20%+ further to avoid the brashings and climb, and losing relatively more time on legs traversing challenging terrain.Big Jon wrote:That's not 100% comparable. The terrain has a fairly major effect on performance. A road marathon takes a lot less strength, power and flexibility than a 100 minute orienteering race. People lose power, strengthen and flexibility as they age so this has a bigger effect in orienteering than in road racing.
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
The table below shows ratios of running speeds (e.g. in km/h), listed against men's ages.
Column 2 is for world record marathon times whilst column 3 gives speed ratios for winners of Long Distance races at WMOC ...
M35 1.00 1.00
M40 0.99 0.98
M45 0.97 0.96
M50 0.93 0.94
M55 0.89 0.87
M60 0.85 0.79
M65 0.81 0.74
M70 0.78 0.67
M75 0.74 0.58
M80 0.69 0.47
M85 0.62 0.37
M90 0.54 0.25
Column 2 is for world record marathon times whilst column 3 gives speed ratios for winners of Long Distance races at WMOC ...
M35 1.00 1.00
M40 0.99 0.98
M45 0.97 0.96
M50 0.93 0.94
M55 0.89 0.87
M60 0.85 0.79
M65 0.81 0.74
M70 0.78 0.67
M75 0.74 0.58
M80 0.69 0.47
M85 0.62 0.37
M90 0.54 0.25
- DJM
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
Very interesting - so basically they track pretty well to about 55, then orienteering speed falls off faster. It would be interesting to see the same data for women.
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
DJM wrote:The table below shows ratios of running speeds (e.g. in km/h), listed against men's ages.
Column 2 is for world record marathon times whilst column 3 gives speed ratios for winners of Long Distance races at WMOC ...
M35 1.00 1.00
M40 0.99 0.98
M45 0.97 0.96
M50 0.93 0.94
M55 0.89 0.87
M60 0.85 0.79
M65 0.81 0.74
M70 0.78 0.67
M75 0.74 0.58
M80 0.69 0.47
M85 0.62 0.37
M90 0.54 0.25
I rest my case m'lud
- Big Jon
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
This is a gender equality thread so it was remiss of me not to give the whole picture
As before M35 = 1.00 for both marathon and orienteering speed ratios
M35 1.00 1.00 W35 0.91 0.81
M40 0.99 0.98 W40 0.90 0.79
M45 0.97 0.96 W45 0.89 0.75
M50 0.93 0.94 W50 0.85 0.69
M55 0.89 0.87 W55 0.81 0.65
M60 0.85 0.79 W60 0.75 0.61
M65 0.81 0.74 W65 0.70 0.58
M70 0.78 0.67 W70 0.65 0.52
M75 0.74 0.58 W75 0.60 0.41
M80 0.69 0.47 W80 0.55 0.31
M85 0.62 0.37 W85 0.49 0.22
M90 0.54 0.25 W90 0.41 0.13
As before M35 = 1.00 for both marathon and orienteering speed ratios
M35 1.00 1.00 W35 0.91 0.81
M40 0.99 0.98 W40 0.90 0.79
M45 0.97 0.96 W45 0.89 0.75
M50 0.93 0.94 W50 0.85 0.69
M55 0.89 0.87 W55 0.81 0.65
M60 0.85 0.79 W60 0.75 0.61
M65 0.81 0.74 W65 0.70 0.58
M70 0.78 0.67 W70 0.65 0.52
M75 0.74 0.58 W75 0.60 0.41
M80 0.69 0.47 W80 0.55 0.31
M85 0.62 0.37 W85 0.49 0.22
M90 0.54 0.25 W90 0.41 0.13
- DJM
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
David - do you have those ratios against 21s rather than 35s? (Or, noting the not infrequent winning of WOC medals by 35s, are they basically the same?)
Really? On the basis of those numbers, I'm a very long way from being convinced that M35s and M60s need winning times that are respectively 30% and 50% shorter than the M21 winning time.
Big Jon wrote:I rest my case m'lud
Really? On the basis of those numbers, I'm a very long way from being convinced that M35s and M60s need winning times that are respectively 30% and 50% shorter than the M21 winning time.
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Scott - god
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Re: IOF FootO Gender Equality survey
[quote="Scott"]I imagine that there is probably an age after which a 100-minute winning time is genuinely less appealing, but given the number of V50s running marathons I suspect that age may be somewhat higher than orienteering currently sets it.
Based on DJM's table, and on my personal experience, this is pretty well spot on. Up to M50 100-minute winning time (i.e. a 2+ hour race;) ) would be a challenge and a nice complement to the 35 minute winning time of middle/ 12-15 of a sprint. Since M55, it would be too much, especially if trying to run again the next day.
Although I am neither, I do think having a longer winning time for W80 than M20 is a bit silly. With due respect to the older ladies, I'm sure the M20s could cope.
Based on DJM's table, and on my personal experience, this is pretty well spot on. Up to M50 100-minute winning time (i.e. a 2+ hour race;) ) would be a challenge and a nice complement to the 35 minute winning time of middle/ 12-15 of a sprint. Since M55, it would be too much, especially if trying to run again the next day.
Although I am neither, I do think having a longer winning time for W80 than M20 is a bit silly. With due respect to the older ladies, I'm sure the M20s could cope.
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