I spent four years travelling to events by public transport out of necessity, and have tried to do it since then when it has seemed viable.
It's certainly possible to figure out the possibilities yourself, but I suspect more people would be inclined to consider public transport if organisers proactively highlighted the options, rather than relying on each individual competitor to go through the rigmarole of attempting to discover whether there are any viable rural bus routes that go somewhere near the area on a Sunday (something that Google Maps is, alas, still pretty rubbish at).
A bigger barrier to using public transport, however, is that if you don't have a car then there is generally nowhere dry or vaguely secure to leave the rest of your stuff while you run. I've done several long bus+train+bus journeys home in soaking wet O-kit, and it's not much fun.
A more radical suggestion, post-COVID, might be to switch to the model of meeting your clubmates at a convenient central point and then travelling to and from more distant events in a club minibus. It might not worthwhile for clubs whose members are scattered over a large rural area, but many clubs will have a significant concentration of members in one or two urban centres. Even for relatively small regional events, it really makes very little sense for lots of half-empty cars to drive from the same city to a forest 50 miles away and back again. Travelling as a club also has the advantage of being a bit more sociable (although admittedly not everyone may see that as an advantage).
IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
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Scott - god
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
Scott wrote:
It's certainly possible to figure out the possibilities yourself, but I suspect more people would be inclined to consider public transport if organisers proactively highlighted the options, rather than relying on each individual competitor to go through the rigmarole of attempting to discover whether there are any viable rural bus routes that go somewhere near the area on a Sunday (something that Google Maps is, alas, still pretty rubbish at).
Exactly. Yes, Graeme I could look it up, and am quite happy to do so to the nearest station*, but then what? A little local knowledge goes a long way. Particularly as a British Champs event, is my bus going to take me through or drop me off in the competition area? I’ve no idea. I’ve had suspicious glances and indeed seen controls I shouldn’t have when arriving at events by bus/train/foot before, simply because I’ve had to make my own way there with no guidance from the organisers.
As Scott says, google is pretty rubbish for buses, and offers connection times most orienteers could easily beat too.
It simply needs to be a greater consideration when organising an event. I do normally find somewhere to store kit on arrival though, normally the registration tent but again, a bit of pre-info would be reassuring.
EDIT * - Assuming the nearest station is the right one to go to, for Skelmersdale, Upholland probably only is if you are happy to walk a fair distance and then only on Sat as it has no Sunday service.
Last edited by Len on Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
If there is no public transport option then, if we are serious about cutting emissions, perhaps the event (even major ones) should be cancelled or reorganised with immediate effect?
End of the Scottish 6 Day then ?
Didn't see that many bus services running close to the event venues, although guess we could have all caught the Harry Potter train to Arisaig.
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
graeme wrote:Len wrote:Correct - Look at the British Sprint Champs page and there is no mention of how to get there by public transport,
That would be because the organisers don't know where you live, but you do. Just look it up. From Edinburgh its just under 4 hours, and can be done by train and bus. You might want to stay a bit closer overnight.
It would be interesting to know how often you use public transport? That's the sort of flippant response that I tend to experience either from people who never use public transport (and treat those who do with barely disguised contempt) or, more problematically, those who use it so regularly that they've forgotten how mind-boggling the options are, especially in an unfamiliar area. And the Sunday services and rural bus routes required for many orienteering events are often a recipe for disaster, if you make a slight mistake.
Regardless of where people are travelling from, they all have to finish in the same place. Noting the best (not necessarily closest) bus stop(s)/train station(s) to arrive at, along with the service numbers and major joining points (e.g. most useful mainline station(s)) would give the majority of competitors the majority of information they need. Making this information a standard inclusion on event information would be useful, especially for large events with viable but not necessarily straightforward public transport access, as appears to be the case for this event.
People's behaviour will only change when/if the alternative is one or more of: a competitive advantage (more convenient/cheaper, etc); offers additional value (eg social opportunities, shared load); a requirement or expectation. Personally, I think the way forward is to focus on developing approaches to the first two, so that when the third arrives, as it likely will, the sport is ahead of the game. Giving people useful information to consider alternatives would be a useful start towards a path of encouraging people to consider options with which they are unfamiliar and possibly quite nervous.
Big events are the ones where group travel options and/or a major shift to using public transport are both most viable, and most likely to have a positive impact. And I expect a culture change at that level would naturally filter down to regional and local events.
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
spitalfields wrote:It would be interesting to know how often you use public transport?
I organise a lot of events, and I don't use public transport much for exactly the reasons you mention*. So asking me as the organiser to provide you with local knowledge of public transport (i.e. more than timetables) is a terrible idea. And I'll bet the organisers of the British Sprints never took the bus to Skelmersdale...
*Although, I did spend a lot of time checking out that the WOC 2022 (now 2024) spectator races are all accessible from Edinburgh by public transport, which is why we proposed North Berwick and Tweedsmuir.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
People will say orienteering's benefits out weigh its costs in terms of health, well being and appreciation of nature in other ways - in exactly the same way as they do about pets which have an enormous carbon footprint which no one seems to be prepared to flag up.
Personally I would see a realistic approach as giving everyone a modest carbon allowance to use as they please. - you can go orienteering but you can't have a dog or go abroad etc!
To be honest - all this is a drop in the rapidly rising ocean until industry cleans up its act. We all understand fossil fuels but concrete is also the work of the devil!
Personally I would see a realistic approach as giving everyone a modest carbon allowance to use as they please. - you can go orienteering but you can't have a dog or go abroad etc!
To be honest - all this is a drop in the rapidly rising ocean until industry cleans up its act. We all understand fossil fuels but concrete is also the work of the devil!
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Mrs H - god
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
Len wrote:Scott wrote:
It's certainly possible to figure out the possibilities yourself, but I suspect more people would be inclined to consider public transport if organisers proactively highlighted the options,...
... It simply needs to be a greater consideration when organising an event ... a bit of pre-info would be reassuring.
Orienteers have always had the option of using public transport (or a bicycle) to access events, but as stated above this has so many difficulties that vanishingly few choose to do it.
Is a bit more information going to change this? I very much doubt it.
If we are truly going to take steps to increase the use of public transport, then it seems to me that we have to make that an easier option than using the car. And that means changing the way we stage our events.
Business as usual, should not be an acceptable response. The changes required will probably seem unpalatable to most orienteers (an ever ageing cohort). However, those new to the sport, hopefully younger (owning fewer cars) and more diverse, may find events organised close to public transport, both more accessible and more acceptable.
So what will the sport look like in a low-emissions future? More urban, more parks, more local?
And we are told changes have to happen 'now' not at some time in the future. So can the S6D be planned in the same way as it always has been? Not if we are serious about reacting to this 'code red for humanity' it can't.
Making these changes may actually save our dying sport.
Last edited by blindasabat on Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
blindasabat wrote:Len wrote:Scott wrote:
It's certainly possible to figure out the possibilities yourself, but I suspect more people would be inclined to consider public transport if organisers proactively highlighted the options,...
... It simply needs to be a greater consideration when organising an event ... a bit of pre-info would be reassuring.
Is a bit more information going to change this? I very much doubt it.
It's a simple as if the info isn't out there, people aren't going to consider it, as Scott says. Out of sight, out of mind.
Compare to driving/parking info which is always provided in droves including signage approaching the event.
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
The 6 day bus from the campsite is a good example of shared transport. Might we get to the stage where for some big events there is no car park but instead an event bus picks competitors up from a train station? It might open up some areas to big events that organisers have previously dismissed due to lack of parking options. I acknowledge the problems of competitors perhaps not being able to find a dry place for their stuff, extra cost for the event, fewer trains at the weekend etc.
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
There are lots of things we could do - some just requiring a sensible approach from club committees, but others needing buy-in from the wider orienteering community.
As well as indicating whether bus/train can provide access to the event, non-car-centric best practice could include:
- indicating the location of assembly/start, as well as the car park, particularly when pre-entrants are encouraged to go straight to the start. (People who have already walked some distance from public transport don't appreciate passing unknowingly within 200m and then having to retrace steps from a far car park!)
- later start time ranges, particularly for Sundays (accepting that this may be less feasible in winter)
- advertising if assembly / finish / start have (secure?) kit / cycle storage
- for urban events, planning so that assembly can be close to a train station
- for forest events, having parking /assembly at the nearest station, with bussing (or up to say 4 km walk) to start.
Encouraging shared private transport, be it by car / minibus / coach, is surely an obvious step. Inverse car park pricing (as above), only accepting cars with at least 3 occupants, always allocating start times in club blocks (pre-advertised, e.g. perhaps at an adjacent club your club all have early starts) etc could all help.
If we want to be more radical, only accept entries by/via clubs - as happens in some other countries - with clubs then arranging whatever level of transport is appropriate. This sometimes happens for say Compass Sport Cup Final, but in principle could be far more often.
As well as indicating whether bus/train can provide access to the event, non-car-centric best practice could include:
- indicating the location of assembly/start, as well as the car park, particularly when pre-entrants are encouraged to go straight to the start. (People who have already walked some distance from public transport don't appreciate passing unknowingly within 200m and then having to retrace steps from a far car park!)
- later start time ranges, particularly for Sundays (accepting that this may be less feasible in winter)
- advertising if assembly / finish / start have (secure?) kit / cycle storage
- for urban events, planning so that assembly can be close to a train station
- for forest events, having parking /assembly at the nearest station, with bussing (or up to say 4 km walk) to start.
Encouraging shared private transport, be it by car / minibus / coach, is surely an obvious step. Inverse car park pricing (as above), only accepting cars with at least 3 occupants, always allocating start times in club blocks (pre-advertised, e.g. perhaps at an adjacent club your club all have early starts) etc could all help.
If we want to be more radical, only accept entries by/via clubs - as happens in some other countries - with clubs then arranging whatever level of transport is appropriate. This sometimes happens for say Compass Sport Cup Final, but in principle could be far more often.
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
blindasabat wrote:.... So can the S6D be planned in the same way as it always has been? ...
Just picking up on this point (and not specific to S6D but to all multi-/holiday events).
At multi-day events abroad it seems far more common to have more than one day utilising a single assembly area (and perhaps event campsite). So private transport is not needed once at the event town/location. In this country it seems rare - I can recall a few paired days at S6D, but usually it is very much the opposite, with events spread over a wide distance. (At one time I think there was even a deliberate policy of an 'away' day at a long distance?).
Perhaps our multi-day summer events are now too large for this to be feasible? There isn't enough accommodation for say 2-4000 people within a single town / relatively small area. Would it be better to have 3 or 4 3-day events, each for only say 500-1000 people, each summer?
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
The White Rose is usually like this (although unfortunately not this year...)
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
That would be because the organisers don't know where you live, but you do. Just look it up.
It helps to be advised of the nearest connections (bus stops/lines, train services) and it also serves as a reminder: many events are difficult to reach with public transport so you tend to forget about that option.
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
Although you'll all groan at the thought of this, an effective way to reduce our carbon footprint would be for organisers, and possibly clubs, regions and british orienteering, to produce 'environmental impact assessments'. Just as the risk assessment is designed to make organisers think about safety risks and reduce them, the environmental impact assessment could be to help organisers think about ways to reduce their environmental impact.
It could be a 'carbon impact assessment' if just focused on global warming.
Ideas such as publishing public transport options in entry details keep coming up on discussions like this, yet car orientated organisers often forget, so this would be a way of keeping them on the agenda.
You are all talking about the impact of one subset of orienteers btw, the travelling/addict types. The casual 10 event a year, all local type of orienteer underrepresented here has much less impact, so a strategy aimed to support this group would make more sense in the long run. Ie lets have more local events, and less (but higher quality) regional and national events.
Just to throw one contentious point in. I personally think that car parking charges of £1/£2 etc have no measurable impact on car sharing and are just a waste of volunteers time standing in the rain with a bucket. Just add this to the entry fees. If we want to use the 'stick' approach to car sharing, a 'near' car park for car sharers is much more effective, or genuine deterrant fees that will cause complaints - at least £5, probably £10. At bigger events, I like the idea of grouping club entry times to encourage car sharing - and sociability, though again might not be popular.
It could be a 'carbon impact assessment' if just focused on global warming.
Ideas such as publishing public transport options in entry details keep coming up on discussions like this, yet car orientated organisers often forget, so this would be a way of keeping them on the agenda.
You are all talking about the impact of one subset of orienteers btw, the travelling/addict types. The casual 10 event a year, all local type of orienteer underrepresented here has much less impact, so a strategy aimed to support this group would make more sense in the long run. Ie lets have more local events, and less (but higher quality) regional and national events.
Just to throw one contentious point in. I personally think that car parking charges of £1/£2 etc have no measurable impact on car sharing and are just a waste of volunteers time standing in the rain with a bucket. Just add this to the entry fees. If we want to use the 'stick' approach to car sharing, a 'near' car park for car sharers is much more effective, or genuine deterrant fees that will cause complaints - at least £5, probably £10. At bigger events, I like the idea of grouping club entry times to encourage car sharing - and sociability, though again might not be popular.
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Re: IPCC report - implications for Orienteering?
Orienteering involves navigating through unknown terrain which necessitates travel, often to inaccessible places. Some of the more radical suggestions like banning events that can't provide public transport would effectively destroy the sport.
Very true, and personally I don't think its right to sacrifice our sport in a vain attempt to make a difference.
I suspect that orienteers tend to be more environmentally aware than most with many of us already reducing carbon footprints through lifestyle and consumer choices. Certainly facilitating and encouraging group or public transport options makes sense, but reducing the number of national events etc. is going to far.
Agreed - any effective measures have to come from governments otherwise we're just pissing in the wind.
Mrs H wrote: To be honest - all this is a drop in the rapidly rising ocean until industry cleans up its act.
Very true, and personally I don't think its right to sacrifice our sport in a vain attempt to make a difference.
I suspect that orienteers tend to be more environmentally aware than most with many of us already reducing carbon footprints through lifestyle and consumer choices. Certainly facilitating and encouraging group or public transport options makes sense, but reducing the number of national events etc. is going to far.
Mrs H wrote:Personally I would see a realistic approach as giving everyone a modest carbon allowance to use as they please. - you can go orienteering but you can't have a dog or go abroad etc!
Agreed - any effective measures have to come from governments otherwise we're just pissing in the wind.
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