To me, what is important at speed is the shape of the OOB areas and the clarity of the paths and areas to be run through. I doubt many people running round Skelmersdale on Sunday noticed whether the boundaries of the back gardens were a fence, a hedge or a wall. They just noticed there was a block of housing they had to run round. And lots of them.
In an area like that I'm glad the mapper simplified and removed the thick black lines for clarity. I believe this was explained in the pre-event info to remove any doubt.
British Sprint Championship Weekend
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
Cater-cornered ambiguity is this...
Can you get from SW to NE open area?
Here's a bit of the Skelmersdale map (just east of the finish) that confused me...
There's no fence end on the ground, just a "mapping convention boundary".
Nobody is going to officially protest that! But I disagree with the idea that if there are no protests the event can't be improved. I've made dozens of maps, nobody ever protested, but...
Can you get from SW to NE open area?
Here's a bit of the Skelmersdale map (just east of the finish) that confused me...
There's no fence end on the ground, just a "mapping convention boundary".
Nobody is going to officially protest that! But I disagree with the idea that if there are no protests the event can't be improved. I've made dozens of maps, nobody ever protested, but...
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graeme - god
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
Len wrote:To me, what is important at speed is the shape of the OOB areas and the clarity of the paths and areas to be run through. I doubt many people running round Skelmersdale on Sunday noticed whether the boundaries of the back gardens were a fence, a hedge or a wall.
Exactly.
Remember that a thick black line on the map isn't necessarily a high wall - it's an impassable wall (as per the ISSproM 2019 specification, symbol 515). I think it's much better to use thin black lines with olive behind to represent the back yard of those houses, and I really don't care whether the actual boundary is a low or high hedge, fence or wall, because it's clear I can't go in or through it.
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Spookster - god
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
pete.owens wrote:The relay area was characterised by small courtyards (smaller than a control circle) with low walled areas of planting. These courtyards were typically bounded by 2.5m high walls. They are not just "edges of OOB", but the defining features of the terrain - that the other side was OOB was incidental.
I completely disagree with this. IMO the thick black lines added nothing to the map, and took much away (readability mostly); the map would have been vastly improved by using a thin black line to mark the edges of the olive green. I was navigating by the alleyways - to me the most significant feature on the map - not by whether they were bounded by a 2.5m barrier or not. TBH, I barely noticed, not least because it was all the same.
I believe, though, that the biggest problem was the colour of the overprint. Even with thin lines, I suspect this would have been one, and the thick black lines simply exacerbated the issue. Equally, with the pinker/paler colour used on Sunday, there may not have been an issue even with the thick black lines - would have to see a print. I agree, though that a kink would almost certainly have helped - I can barely see the circle for my #2 even sat here now, but realise that I saw it on the day simply because #3 went off at a strong angle.
The terrain used for the relays (certainly west of the dual carriageway) was inherently more complex and difficult to navigate through. .... For the individuals the area was more open and conventional with a hirerarchy of roads and alleys - you can tick off the big features till you get near the control.
I wasn't commenting on the relevant technical difficulties of the areas, but on the comparative ease/difficulty in physically reading the maps - a different issue. For me the relay map was harder to read, but, FWIW, the relay itself was navigationally easier.
.The other thing was the weather. Rain always makes it more difficult to read maps.
We were lucky on our leg - it was completely dry. The rain didn't come in until whilst our leg 2 was out.
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awk - god
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
pete.owens wrote:rf_fozzy wrote:Plus if you have thick black lines everywhere surrounding every OOB,
This is missing the point.
The thick black lines are mapping high walls - the biggest most significant features in the area. It is about representing the terrain - not emphasising uncrossability.
They are NOT round every OOB - They are NOT the boundaries of OOB - They are major features in their own right that sometimes happen to be OOB on one side, just as OOB areas sometimes happen to be bounded by walls, sometimes by buildings, sometimes by fences and sometimes by the edge of a paved area. It is the appearance from the running side that needs to depicted on the map - and there is a significant difference between a small walled courtyard or the enhance to an alleyway and paved paths running through ornamental gardens or a narrow road bounded by front lawns.
No, as Graeme said, that's not the point I was making.
I understood why they'd been mapped. My argument isn't that it's wrong to map them necessarily (as far as I understand ISSprOM 2019, the way the relay map is drawn is fine.
My argument is entirely stylistic and about clarity.
For me, the mapping of the OOB boundaries as impassable walls (as several people have already said) is irrelevant (at least in my opinion) for navigation, particularly when every boundary is a mapped as impassable wall - it adds nothing to how I run the leg/course. And, for me, makes the map harder to read.
If there were an area where there were no physical boundaries around the OOB and then suddenly one with a high wall surrounding a house, then I *would* map the wall in that case, because it stands out to the runner and thus aids navigation, but where every boundary is a high wall, it, for me, adds nothing.
I can understand why it's mapped that way - and as I say, nothing particularly wrong with it as it complies with ISSprOM2019, but it's not the style I'll be using.
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
graeme wrote:I don't think he's missing the point - here's an example from near the start of rf_fozzy's Cottingley map. The issue is whether to map the fence on the left in the same way as the OOB grass on the right.
Actually, I'm a little surprised that I mapped that grass as OOB and not as runnable - perhaps it looks more gardeny on the ground that it does on Streetview (although I note that the streetview is from 2019 which is when the first version of the map was drawn and it's OOB on that) - perhaps I also decided it was too small to worry about.
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
Peter Cull and Wendy Carlyle's photos of the events:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/petercull/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/wendles56/albums/72157719720405226
https://www.flickr.com/photos/petercull/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/wendles56/albums/72157719720405226
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
Looking at the photo's, I cant see any issues. I can see a clear distinct between house's, canopy's and pavement.
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
rf_fozzy wrote: where every boundary is a high wall, it, for me, adds nothing.
Yes, but this never happens. There are always high walls/fences that you have to map - the ones where neither side is out of bounds. Then you either have to randomly stop mapping the wall where it doesnt stop, which is simply wrong (see example above) - or continue it. If you continue it, you end up with an alley between identical-looking high walls where one side is mapped and the other not, which is weird.
I prefer the thick 0.4mm line for readability, and reassurance that I'm not going to accidently step into OOB. But, as long as the ISSprOM rules are followed minimum gap sizes, either method is perfectly legible. As were both maps - the thing people struggled with was the course overprint.
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graeme - god
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
Gross wrote:I suspect a well planned relay's main objective isn't to provide easy reading on routegadget.
....funny.... I thought that was the only objective.... maybe that's where I've been going wrong all these years
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
After I'd run on Ian Webb's map of Castle Vale a few years ago, I was struck by how legible it was: the uncrossable boundaries on the alleyways made them really stand out as possible routes. I suspect that this involved a lot of manual widening to ensure that the minimum widths were respected. (But that's a separate discussion.)
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Roger - diehard
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
Possibly aided by my request to Ian when he was producing the map not to map kerbslines. I have long felt they add little other than unnecessary clutter, particularly where they cross the end or middle of a narrow alley.
If you diagree and believe they should be shown on the map blame me for their omission from the Castle Vale map and not Ian.
If you diagree and believe they should be shown on the map blame me for their omission from the Castle Vale map and not Ian.
curro ergo sum
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
Two points strike me:
First, we are producing maps not plans, therefore clarity of map for purpose is critical.
Secondly, test printing or an urban map is utterly critical to make sure it is clear - especially at points of clutter such as narrow alleys, complicated pavement/open areas etc
First, we are producing maps not plans, therefore clarity of map for purpose is critical.
Secondly, test printing or an urban map is utterly critical to make sure it is clear - especially at points of clutter such as narrow alleys, complicated pavement/open areas etc
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
King Penguin wrote: I have long felt they add little other than unnecessary clutter
I disagree with this.
Mapping kerbs is really important because it allows a runner to tell whether or not they'll have to run in the midst of potential traffic or not, so it's a safety thing.
Of course you should make sure that any extremely busy/dangerous roads are clearly mapped as out of bounds (purple hatched), but even with normal "runnable" roads, they can be busy at times and it's crucial the runner knows where they can run traffic free.
Pedestrian precincts then obviously have no pavements and they then stand out.
Perhaps in back streets and narrow, very quiet back alleys and similar, then it's ok to omit the kerb edges. I usually check the legibility by printing my maps and remove any kerb edges where it's not clear in such locations.
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Re: British Sprint Championship Weekend
Roger wrote:After I'd run on Ian Webb's map of Castle Vale a few years ago, I was struck by how legible it was: the uncrossable boundaries on the alleyways made them really stand out as possible routes. I suspect that this involved a lot of manual widening to ensure that the minimum widths were respected. (But that's a separate discussion.)
Whilst very clear - and I agree this looks well mapped, I'd question what value the uncrossable walls add when they surround every OOB.
The thinner black line would have worked ok here too I think.
But that's my opinion. And I'm done on this particular argument now.
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