British/Northern Champs
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British/Northern Champs
What a perfect weekend: weather, organisation, mapping, planning all top notch. Thanks to all involved.
- yted
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Re: British/Northern Champs
Yes, thanks to all involved. I thought the planning of the British Middles was excellent - great to have a proper middle distance course without too many controls for a change.
To oblivion and beyond....
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buzz - addict
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Re: British/Northern Champs
A really good weekend, So pleased that the numerous volunteers were rewarded with such wonderful weather for all their efforts. Thanks to them all.
- mikey
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Re: British/Northern Champs
Easy car parking and superb Assembly in same place for both days, with the best of classic South Lakes terrain adjacent. What’s not to like! Only quibble might be that senior courses seem to have been slightly overegged on Sunday with up to 20% retrial rate and some very long times....
Maybe a case of some ‘rusty’ Orienteering skills after lockdown or perhaps Sunday organisers not planning as Day 2 of a multi event? (Day 3 for juniors who were running Friday’s Sprint Selection Race in Keswick).
Maybe a case of some ‘rusty’ Orienteering skills after lockdown or perhaps Sunday organisers not planning as Day 2 of a multi event? (Day 3 for juniors who were running Friday’s Sprint Selection Race in Keswick).
- RoT
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Re: British/Northern Champs
Thanks to everyone for an amazing weekend!
- JennyJ
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Re: British/Northern Champs
Indeed, many thanks to everyone involved in planning and organisation and on-the-day helpers. Let’s not forget also support (or at the very least toleration) from the local community and land owners.
I was thinking too how important events like this are to the local economy - I was one of at least four orienteers staying in one small village ten miles away. Multiply that up and it’s a handy boost for a sector that has suffered a lot recently.
I was thinking too how important events like this are to the local economy - I was one of at least four orienteers staying in one small village ten miles away. Multiply that up and it’s a handy boost for a sector that has suffered a lot recently.
- ricardito
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Re: British/Northern Champs
RoT wrote: Only quibble might be that senior courses seem to have been slightly overegged on Sunday with up to 20% retrial rate and some very long times....
Maybe a case of some ‘rusty’ Orienteering skills after lockdown or perhaps Sunday organisers not planning as Day 2 of a multi event? (Day 3 for juniors who were running Friday’s Sprint Selection Race in Keswick).
Or rather, a rare case of actually planning proper championship length courses on technical terrain (which will appear to be tough if you had entered anticipating the sort of shortenned colour coded course appropriate for a multiday holiday event)
- pete.owens
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Re: British/Northern Champs
pete.owens wrote:Or rather, a rare case of ...
In the absence of any evidence, RoT's explanation is much more plausible. Which is more likely, a small misjudgement by one person (the planner) or dozens of older competitors misjudging which course to enter?
I found my course tough on Sunday, but as it happens I probably put that down to having pushed too hard on Saturday. And also the undergrowth. I know High Dam has some lovely areas, but some are also a bit grotty..
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Crex - white
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Re: British/Northern Champs
More importantly, well done and thank you to everyone involved in staging the weekend's events!
I imagine that having to examine and consider adapting, in the light of covid, pretty much every aspect of how these events were held was a big challenge. It's hard enough to stage big events when it's "business as usual".
I imagine that having to examine and consider adapting, in the light of covid, pretty much every aspect of how these events were held was a big challenge. It's hard enough to stage big events when it's "business as usual".
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Crex - white
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Re: British/Northern Champs
If the course winning times were correct, and they did seem to be on my course, then it suggests those at the top of their class were less rusty than the rest of us.
This was a British Championship and Northern Champs weekend, I'd rather be having the discussion we are now than seeing comments criticising courses for being too short/easy.
This was a British Championship and Northern Champs weekend, I'd rather be having the discussion we are now than seeing comments criticising courses for being too short/easy.
- DM
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Re: British/Northern Champs
DM wrote:If the course winning times were correct
For BOC long, these are 60-70, or 55-65 for pensioners. With "not all the best people" being northern, you might expect winning times a hair longer. Which they are.
Crex wrote:Which is more likely, a small misjudgement by one person (the planner) or dozens of older competitors misjudging which course to enter?
... or nopesport misrepresenting the facts and moaning about it?
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British/Northern Champs
Looking at the data, EWT for M21E is 90-100, actual WT 101 by William Gardner, who is currently 4th in the rankings. For W21E 70-80, actual WT 83 by Grace Molloy.
So I'd call it 'at the top end of guidelines' rather than 'overplanned'. I wasn't there but I understand it was pretty warm so I'm sure that didn't help.
Some winning times were a little long on Saturday too, but I don't envy the planner trying to guess every class's speed in that sort of terrain where straight line distance isn't very meaningful.
And I'm sure people being rusty contributed and that's not the planner's fault - overall it was great to be back!
So I'd call it 'at the top end of guidelines' rather than 'overplanned'. I wasn't there but I understand it was pretty warm so I'm sure that didn't help.
Some winning times were a little long on Saturday too, but I don't envy the planner trying to guess every class's speed in that sort of terrain where straight line distance isn't very meaningful.
And I'm sure people being rusty contributed and that's not the planner's fault - overall it was great to be back!
- Arnold
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Re: British/Northern Champs
I certainly enjoyed myself, despite struggling horribly on the second half of Sunday's course as a result of not having carried enough water (entirely my own fault).
It was a particular delight to be racing a proper length 21E course on a clear, legible 1:15,000 map. It really is a different sport - big-picture simplification and route choice, rather than the close study of detail which is encouraged by 1:10,000 (or, as is becoming increasingly common on areas like High Dam, 1:7,500). Both flavours of orienteering can be great fun, but the former is at serious risk of dying out in favour of the latter.
With Black and Brown courses on 1:15,000 maps having become virtually extinct and the 2021 British Long apparently using 1:10,000, it looks like last Sunday may have been the first and last chance to race on 1:15,000 in England this year.
I wonder how long it will be before we find ourselves sending athletes to represent GB on 1:15,000 maps of terrain far more complex than almost anything to be found in England, despite never having given them the chance to race at that scale domestically.
(I say England deliberately, as I don't run in Scotland anywhere near frequently enough to know whether 1:15,000 is still going strong north of the border.)
On the course lengths, it may be relevant that the event was originally scheduled for earlier in the year. I can imagine that the top competitors would have gone a little faster given better visibility in the forest and no bracken in the open areas.
But, as others have said, it was just nice to have courses that weren't too short! The M21E winning time is supposed to be 90 to 100 minutes, but it's pretty rare to have a winning time upwards of 95, and the last British Long Champs had eight runners under 90 minutes. On the other hand, a British man has taken under 100 minutes for the Long/Classic only six times in the history of WOC. (Quiz question: who is the only British man to have done so twice?)
It was a particular delight to be racing a proper length 21E course on a clear, legible 1:15,000 map. It really is a different sport - big-picture simplification and route choice, rather than the close study of detail which is encouraged by 1:10,000 (or, as is becoming increasingly common on areas like High Dam, 1:7,500). Both flavours of orienteering can be great fun, but the former is at serious risk of dying out in favour of the latter.
With Black and Brown courses on 1:15,000 maps having become virtually extinct and the 2021 British Long apparently using 1:10,000, it looks like last Sunday may have been the first and last chance to race on 1:15,000 in England this year.
I wonder how long it will be before we find ourselves sending athletes to represent GB on 1:15,000 maps of terrain far more complex than almost anything to be found in England, despite never having given them the chance to race at that scale domestically.
(I say England deliberately, as I don't run in Scotland anywhere near frequently enough to know whether 1:15,000 is still going strong north of the border.)
On the course lengths, it may be relevant that the event was originally scheduled for earlier in the year. I can imagine that the top competitors would have gone a little faster given better visibility in the forest and no bracken in the open areas.
But, as others have said, it was just nice to have courses that weren't too short! The M21E winning time is supposed to be 90 to 100 minutes, but it's pretty rare to have a winning time upwards of 95, and the last British Long Champs had eight runners under 90 minutes. On the other hand, a British man has taken under 100 minutes for the Long/Classic only six times in the history of WOC. (Quiz question: who is the only British man to have done so twice?)
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: British/Northern Champs
Scott wrote: Both flavours of orienteering can be great fun, but the former is at serious risk of dying out in favour of the latter.
Yes, but there's no reason you can't have big long route choice legs on a 1:10000. And longest M21E leg at High Dam was only 7mins...
(I say England deliberately, as I don't run in Scotland anywhere near frequently enough to know whether 1:15,000 is still going strong north of the border.)
Sorry, only 1:10000 at the Scottish Champs & six day
(Quiz question: who is the only British man to have done so twice?)
[/quote]
Well, that was a surprise!
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British/Northern Champs
graeme wrote:Yes, but there's no reason you can't have big long route choice legs on a 1:10000.
At a trivial level, there's the origami issue, which kicks in when a leg gets to more than about 1.5km in length. As you say, that would not have been an issue at High Dam. But I actually think the issue is less about leg length per se, and more that - at least as I experience it - there's something qualitatively quite different about navigating on 1:15,000 rather than 1:10,000.
At 1:15,000, the first thing I see when I look at the map is the big features - the overall shape of the hills and valleys, the major tracks, the big blocks of forest and open. It's easy simplify a leg down to its basic components and focus in on the detail only when it's actually relevant.* In a way, it has more in common with planning and executing a mountain marathon leg on a Harvey map than it does with a middle-distance orienteering leg on 1:10,000.
(*I acknowledge that focusing in on the detail is likely to start getting harder now that I'm officially an old man; I'm probably going to need to invest in a magnifier at some point.)
At 1:10,000, the eye is drawn more naturally to the detail rather than to the bigger picture. It actually takes a conscious effort, at least for me, to filter this out and see those big features that allow you to simplify. Despite my best efforts - and I sometimes even find myself literally holding the map further away in an attempt to filter out the noise - I find that 1:10,000 naturally encourages me towards a different style of navigation.
At the increasingly-popular 1:7,500, I often find that it becomes actually quite difficult to discern the big features at all, and "check off all the detail" is basically the only viable navigational technique. On a couple of occasions I've had major navigational disasters on 1:7,500 maps as a result of being utterly unable to figure which direction a slope is supposed to be going.
Of course, it may be that this is all peculiar to me, but from previous discussions I've had on this topic I suspect that that is not the case. I was once told by a planner that they did not want to use 1:15,000 at a major event because it would require the elite runners to "change their orienteering style". To my mind, the fact that 1:15,000 might require a different set of orienteering techniques is the whole point.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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