World Cup - seems the Chinese have taken a HUGE step forward in performance....
Hmmm, am I just being cynical if I see this as quite likely to be based on cheating (same as CISM)?
PS just spotted this:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... r-citizens
Not sure how the authorities square this with blatant cheating at an event run by their "glorious military"?
Naughty Chinese Team
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
Big Jon wrote:Hmmm, am I just being cynical if I see this as quite likely to be based on cheating (same as CISM)?
You are certainly being cynical, and harsh when their WC event was spoiled by poor European mapping. The Chinese have moved up from down the bottom to mid pack: not way ahead as in CISM. You might expect that from a race on unusual home terrain in the middle, and it's hard to see how cheating is a factor in the MSR. There were no secret passageways and they still had to run faster than our lot. Probably they benefit from being on the areas before, and from supporters in the urban, but that happens with all countries, everywhere.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
graeme wrote:Big Jon wrote:Hmmm, am I just being cynical if I see this as quite likely to be based on cheating (same as CISM)?
You are certainly being cynical, and harsh when their WC event was spoiled by poor European mapping. The Chinese have moved up from down the bottom to mid pack: not way ahead as in CISM. You might expect that from a race on unusual home terrain in the middle, and it's hard to see how cheating is a factor in the MSR. There were no secret passageways and they still had to run faster than our lot. Probably they benefit from being on the areas before, and from supporters in the urban, but that happens with all countries, everywhere.
http://liveresults.ch/WC2019R4/sprint/#/views/W
http://liveresults.ch/WC2019R4/sprint/#/views/M
seems a little better than "mid pack"...
- Big Jon
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
Maybe rather than evincing anything nefarious the results emphasise experience of the terrain can matter a lot in sprint too. The extensive narrow alleys are quite something, especially when building fronts go in and out to disguise entrances and there are other alleys that are too small to be mapped as passable.
In the men's it's Yannick Michiels, with experience of China from Park World Tour who prevails. Interestingly he has only one individual fastest leg. Great run from Maxime Rauturier too.
In the women's both Simona Aebersold (14-15) and Tove Alexandersson (2-3) are a single leg away from taking the win off Shuangyan Hao, who did run very well. Also she was only 20 secs off bronze in the WOC Sprint 2009 in Hungary.
Maps.
https://eventor.orienteering.org/Docume ... /Map-Women
https://eventor.orienteering.org/Docume ... /1/Map-Men
Splits.
http://obasen.orientering.se/winsplits/ ... tegoryId=0
http://obasen.orientering.se/winsplits/ ... =1&ct=true
In the men's it's Yannick Michiels, with experience of China from Park World Tour who prevails. Interestingly he has only one individual fastest leg. Great run from Maxime Rauturier too.
In the women's both Simona Aebersold (14-15) and Tove Alexandersson (2-3) are a single leg away from taking the win off Shuangyan Hao, who did run very well. Also she was only 20 secs off bronze in the WOC Sprint 2009 in Hungary.
Maps.
https://eventor.orienteering.org/Docume ... /Map-Women
https://eventor.orienteering.org/Docume ... /1/Map-Men
Splits.
http://obasen.orientering.se/winsplits/ ... tegoryId=0
http://obasen.orientering.se/winsplits/ ... =1&ct=true
- afterthought
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
afterthought wrote: there are other alleys that are too small to be mapped as passable.
Do you mean:
A) Alleys that have been missed off the map completely as too small to be mappable?
Or
B) Alleys that have been put on the map, but the mapper has not respected the minimum dimensions?
If (A) then that would be an example of cheating if competitors had local knowledge. If (B) then it is just poor cartography.
- pete.owens
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
afterthought wrote:Maybe rather than evincing anything nefarious the results emphasise experience of the terrain can matter a lot in sprint too. The extensive narrow alleys are quite something, especially when building fronts go in and out to disguise entrances and there are other alleys that are too small to be mapped as passable.
that's a very charitable interpretation of some extraordinary results!
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greywolf - addict
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
Big Jon wrote:seems a little better than "mid pack"...
Ah right, thought you were talking about beating GBR in the MSR. I hadn't seen the individual sprint results!
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
graeme wrote:Big Jon wrote:seems a little better than "mid pack"...
Ah right, thought you were talking about beating GBR in the MSR. I hadn't seen the individual sprint results!
Understand - initially I'd only heard them from S who had a link on some social media.
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
Generally the minimum physical width for mapping passable alleys was about 60cm (about the lower limit at which one can run through at reasonably close to full speed), although obviously represented larger on the map. Smaller ones were either mapped with olive green or not at all, and were taped where there was any room for ambiguity - you'd lose time rather than gain it attempting to go through any of those, so this is mostly about ensuring that people don't plan on a route choice which goes through alleys which are difficult to pass through.
I think it's plausible that training happened on the area using old maps - and if you saw the old map, you could probably make an educated guess as to where the arena was, and from there the likely area where the first part of the course would be (but a lot of teams do that these days) - but think it extremely unlikely that the course was leaked (not least because the second half was completely redesigned in the last few weeks before the event, and some fine-tuning such as addition/removal of forbidden areas was happening up until the evening before the event; also, almost none of those who had access to the final or near-final courses were locals, with Jaroslav Kacmarcik as the course-setter).
I think it's plausible that training happened on the area using old maps - and if you saw the old map, you could probably make an educated guess as to where the arena was, and from there the likely area where the first part of the course would be (but a lot of teams do that these days) - but think it extremely unlikely that the course was leaked (not least because the second half was completely redesigned in the last few weeks before the event, and some fine-tuning such as addition/removal of forbidden areas was happening up until the evening before the event; also, almost none of those who had access to the final or near-final courses were locals, with Jaroslav Kacmarcik as the course-setter).
- blairtrewin
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
How did they avoid the alleys being jam packed with people? I've seen many places in China a bit like this, but you couldn't even begin to run without bumping someone? Evacuation?
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
blairtrewin wrote:I think it's plausible that training happened on the area using old maps
Systematic training on the area to memorise the alleys would be huge advantage, even without knowing the actual courses in advance, especially where there's no Google Streetview to help everyone else.
Jan's analysis is interesting and carefully non-committal.
Guess we'll see next year if this really is a great leap forward for Chinese orienteering...
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greywolf - addict
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
I thought Jan's analysis was worthwhile too. One thing he missed is that, as I understand it, the main reason for Shaungyan Hao's relative absence from orienteering in recent years is that she's been focusing on running (plus she had a baby a couple of years ago).
The thing which I find most distinctive about the Chinese village terrain (by the way, it's a rather sleepy village - but close enough to industrial areas that it's commuter belt - and I've never seen much pedestrian traffic in the residential areas on a weekday) is that it requires very rapid decision-making - at elite athlete speed you're often reaching a decision point every 3-4 seconds. The closest equivalent I can think of in the existing O world is some of the more intense Mediterranean old towns (of course, something like the Marrakech medina would take it to the next level), and it would be very interesting to see how the Chinese performed in that type of terrain. (There's never been an IOF major elite event in a really intense Mediterranean town - even WOC 2014 used some of the easier bits of Venice - and I suspect there would be some interesting results if there ever was).
One of the reasons why I'm more open than some to accepting the possibility of doing a performance far above expectations in such terrain is that I once did one myself, at WMOC 2008 in Portugal (4th, and fastest in the old town section; I haven't been in the top 20 at any other WMOC sprint in Europe). Completely understand, though, why the Chinese are not getting the benefit of the doubt from the O community in light of the events at CISM.
The thing which I find most distinctive about the Chinese village terrain (by the way, it's a rather sleepy village - but close enough to industrial areas that it's commuter belt - and I've never seen much pedestrian traffic in the residential areas on a weekday) is that it requires very rapid decision-making - at elite athlete speed you're often reaching a decision point every 3-4 seconds. The closest equivalent I can think of in the existing O world is some of the more intense Mediterranean old towns (of course, something like the Marrakech medina would take it to the next level), and it would be very interesting to see how the Chinese performed in that type of terrain. (There's never been an IOF major elite event in a really intense Mediterranean town - even WOC 2014 used some of the easier bits of Venice - and I suspect there would be some interesting results if there ever was).
One of the reasons why I'm more open than some to accepting the possibility of doing a performance far above expectations in such terrain is that I once did one myself, at WMOC 2008 in Portugal (4th, and fastest in the old town section; I haven't been in the top 20 at any other WMOC sprint in Europe). Completely understand, though, why the Chinese are not getting the benefit of the doubt from the O community in light of the events at CISM.
- blairtrewin
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
greywolf wrote:Guess we'll see next year if this really is a great leap forward for Chinese orienteering...
Next up for quite a few of the athletes at the World Cup including several of the GB team (and presumably some of the Chinese team) is a set of PWT races in China...
http://www.p-w-t.org/
Why did I do that...
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
Tom Hollowell, the IOF Secretary General, has published a major statement about both the CISM scandal and perceived issues at the recent Chinese World Cup here.
It's well worth a read.
It's well worth a read.
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Re: Naughty Chinese Team
Do any of these athletes get drug tested?
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
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