Seems like the only way we can move this debate forward is by finding out the actual situation from BOF - anyone want to pick this task up?
Once we know what is ACTUALLY happening then we can propose ideas to change/improve the current system.
Insurance
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Re: Insurance
Big Jon wrote:Seems like the only way we can move this debate forward is by finding out the actual situation from BOF - anyone want to pick this task up?
Once we know what is ACTUALLY happening then we can propose ideas to change/improve the current system.
Here's an extract from Mike's eNews of 23rd June 2014:
The insurers we use and the other major sports insurance providers do not provide public liability cover at a reasonable price for all participants at an event in a single package, members and non-members. Such a solution is simply not achievable for us as the significant increase in cost (if it is possible at all) will have to be met by increasing the costs to our members and will also entail significant administrative overhead for clubs and ourselves. The alternative is to go to a ‘day’ insurance cover which will significantly increase costs, administration and penalise members.
Clubs, club officials, event officials and members all have public liability cover regardless of this issue and all clubs need to keep lists of people attending all events.
(There was also a suggestion of signing up non-members as members of BO (though not necessarily of a club or association) to circumvent this, but that's less attractive now BO membership fees are higher.)
There was more clarification in Mike's eNews of 5th December 2014:
Insurance
Inevitably we return to insurance matters yet again. The following information may be of interest to you:
a) Our insurance requirements for 2015 include both WOC 2015 and the public liability aspects of the Scottish 6-Days, consequently we started our discussions with the insurers early this year, in September. We now seem to have resolved all of the queries raised by the insurers and hope to be in a position to finalise the cover for 2015.
b) The cover note and hopefully the full insurance information will be published as a news item before we finish for Christmas. So if you have events early in the New Year you will have the information that land owner or access agents require in good time.
c) Non-members and 3 activities/events: we’ve spent a lot of time trying to clear this up and I have pursued it rigorously with the insurers. The situation is clear:d) Employer’s liability is only available to employees of British Orienteering; if you or your club employ any people to do work for you, for instance coaching, you will need to source employer’s liability or speak with me and see if cover can be organised for you. British Orienteering has employer’s liability cover for all staff on our payroll. We do not provide it for anyone not on our payroll.
- The club and its officials will be covered for public liability insurance regardless of the non-members situation
- All members participating or volunteering to organise etc will be covered
- Non-members will be covered by public liability for 3 events: however the insurers understand the challenges we face with participants attending activity/events organised by different club and that some people will choose to participate regardless of the 3 come and try it activity insurance cover. Clubs can rest assured that they and their members will be covered even if participants choose to attend more than the stipulated 3 activities. That is the right of non-members – our responsibility is to make it clear that they will receive public liability cover for 3 activities but they will then participate at their own risk (although many will already be covered by public liability cover from other insurances they may have).
- Clubs are required to maintain a list of attendees
- roadrunner
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Re: Insurance
Thanks Roadrunner - seems fairly clear to me (unless things have changed since those articles) that main-stream committed orienteers are covered whatever and only non-members are left without cover so could be sued if they damage something. Maybe need to try to explain that succinctly and clearly to newcomers in order to explain the benefits of membership.
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Re: Insurance
Big Jon wrote:Seems like the only way we can move this debate forward is by finding out the actual situation from BOF - anyone want to pick this task up?
As I said above, I'm speaking to the British Orienteering office to clarify the current situation.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Insurance
Big Jon wrote:Maybe need to try to explain that succinctly and clearly to newcomers in order to explain the benefits of membership.
I think we need to wait for Scott to receive answers. But I hope this includes clarification on a number of points, including:
- separation of 'public liability' from 'personal liability'. What regular INDs are not covered for is personal liability arising from their own actions. Public liability is for organisations.
- Many (I believe most but wouldn't want to mis-lead) home contents insurance policies include personal liability anywhere in the UK as standard. So a large proportion of INDs will be covered anyway. So a simple message of 'you're not covered from event 4' is inaccurate and should not be used. (We're not yet the USA, and claims are so rare that insurers would never be able to sell this by itself in economic volume, so most package it up as an extra benefit of other insurances, home contents being the most common. )
- The idea of BOF members being insured is misleading. There is no personal accident cover. Should this be emphasised so regular orienteers can consider if they have a level of cover appropriate for their needs?
In reality, I find it very hard to conceive of a situation where an IND would be held personally liable for an event that the organising club could not be held responsible for. Ultimately, the IND is only there because of the event, and so any accidents are a result of the club holding the event. Proper planning and risk assessments show that it was an accident rather than negligence so mean the insurance cover remains valid; it doesn't absolve the club of responsibility. If the IND (or for that matter any BOF member) behaves recklessly, then they are likely to invalidate any personal liability cover they have. And then a claimant would likely fall back on the club's public liability insurance for being the reason they were there in the first place.
I am very happy to be told I am wrong, and to have the true situation clearly explained. What I am not keen on is being told that I have disappointed the CEO by not taking this issue seriously, when my intention is simply to achieve clarity so no one is misled and makes non-optimal decisions as a result. My concern is that the fog around insurance is viewed by some as a reason for people to sign up as members, where in my view it is more likely to lead to fewer people engaging in casual orienteering, eliminating any possibility of them becoming a future member.
- spitalfields
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Re: Insurance
spitalfields wrote:Big Jon wrote:Maybe need to try to explain that succinctly and clearly to newcomers in order to explain the benefits of membership.
I think we need to wait for Scott to receive answers. But I hope this includes clarification on a number of points, including:
- separation of 'public liability' from 'personal liability'. What regular INDs are not covered for is personal liability arising from their own actions. Public liability is for organisations.
- Many (I believe most but wouldn't want to mis-lead) home contents insurance policies include personal liability anywhere in the UK as standard. So a large proportion of INDs will be covered anyway. So a simple message of 'you're not covered from event 4' is inaccurate and should not be used. (We're not yet the USA, and claims are so rare that insurers would never be able to sell this by itself in economic volume, so most package it up as an extra benefit of other insurances, home contents being the most common. )
- The idea of BOF members being insured is misleading. There is no personal accident cover. Should this be emphasised so regular orienteers can consider if they have a level of cover appropriate for their needs?
In reality, I find it very hard to conceive of a situation where an IND would be held personally liable for an event that the organising club could not be held responsible for. Ultimately, the IND is only there because of the event, and so any accidents are a result of the club holding the event. Proper planning and risk assessments show that it was an accident rather than negligence so mean the insurance cover remains valid; it doesn't absolve the club of responsibility. If the IND (or for that matter any BOF member) behaves recklessly, then they are likely to invalidate any personal liability cover they have. And then a claimant would likely fall back on the club's public liability insurance for being the reason they were there in the first place.
I am very happy to be told I am wrong, and to have the true situation clearly explained. What I am not keen on is being told that I have disappointed the CEO by not taking this issue seriously, when my intention is simply to achieve clarity so no one is misled and makes non-optimal decisions as a result. My concern is that the fog around insurance is viewed by some as a reason for people to sign up as members, where in my view it is more likely to lead to fewer people engaging in casual orienteering, eliminating any possibility of them becoming a future member.
Most sensible summary of the dogs breakfast that is the BOF insurance issue that I've seen. BOF have IMO in the past been deliberately vague to the point that any clarifications now seem to be going against whats been said in the past. I think we need to roll this issue right back to the start and BOF needs to put some information down that is clear for everyone new and old.
If it needs a surcharge on non members per event for insurance cover tell us what it is and make the surcharge. I know there are people out there who just orienteer sporadically and don't ever get asked to pay extra or to volunteer. If my membership fee is paying for their insurance that's not an acceptable situation.
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- andypat
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Re: Insurance
This issue has come to the fore quite a few times over the last five years. The basic issue is with new people turning up at an event to have a go. Effectively we have had a response to our 'advertising'.... we should be delighted that people have come!
The priority now is to get as many of those first timers into the club as soon as possible. So we should have a colourful A5 leaflet available to hand to them that explains what we are, and how to join...
"Welcome to our event...... if you need any assistance...... Our programme of events can be found...... Todays results will be...... We offer a coaching programme for juniors and adults..... Would you please consider joining the BOF where membership is £X per year. This can be done via.......
We hope you enjoy your experience today. We would welcome feedback...... We look forward to seeing you again at another event..... Check out the website....."
The response will be better than you think.
The priority now is to get as many of those first timers into the club as soon as possible. So we should have a colourful A5 leaflet available to hand to them that explains what we are, and how to join...
"Welcome to our event...... if you need any assistance...... Our programme of events can be found...... Todays results will be...... We offer a coaching programme for juniors and adults..... Would you please consider joining the BOF where membership is £X per year. This can be done via.......
We hope you enjoy your experience today. We would welcome feedback...... We look forward to seeing you again at another event..... Check out the website....."
The response will be better than you think.
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Re: Insurance
I do think we make too big an issue of insurance - after all, in road races (where generally a large fraction of the entrants are "unaffiliated" and hence have no insurance from UKA) no-one even mentions it. It would be good to know how many claims against individual competitors have ever been made - I suspect it will be an extremely small number. As spitalfields says, such cover is often included in home insurance policies, and I doubt it makes much impact on the premiums otherwise companies would be excluding it to rank higher in comparison sites. And yes, it isn't personal accident cover - something which UKA makes explicit but BO does not:
This is not a personal accident policy (if an athlete trips over their own shoelaces and breaks an arm, there is no automatic compensation)
- roadrunner
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Re: Insurance
RJ wrote:... we should be delighted that people have come!
Absolutely. I think everyone's onside with that.
RJ wrote:The priority now is to get as many of those first timers into the club as soon as possible.
That's the nub of the issue. Is the priority to get people to join the club, or is it to get them to come again? Do we see people as future orienteers or future event helpers? If people orienteer regularly and never help, is that better than nothing to grow the sport? It's like the contrast between athletics clubs and parkrun. Since parkrun started its participation has exploded, while clubs and their events have ... reversed their decline through the 2000s.
Although there's no hint of pressure to join, parkrun is covered by UKA insurance: it would be interesting to understand why parkrun don't need a "three goes and you're out" policy.
This may solve itself: I think quite soon we'll be running dual punching at local events: dιbbers with boxes and phones with QR codes. Signing up for the phone app would probably enable us to do whatever it is parkrun do.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Insurance
roadrunner wrote:I suspect it will be an extremely small number.
I believe its fewer than that...
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Insurance
graeme wrote: Is the priority to get people to join the club, or is it to get them to come again? Do we see people as future orienteers or future event helpers?
Well both really! Once they join they can decide how frequently they orienteer, and at what level..... and they can help, and get involved in the club, at what ever level they want. It is usually when they renew their membership at the start of the second year that they ask about 'geting involved with the club'.
You have a healthy club if the 'older members' ask "who are those new faces I keep seeing at our events now?"
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Re: Insurance
“NOTE - Due to British Orienteering insurance restrictions if you are not a SWOC/BOF member and have entered more than 2 orienteering events since Jan 2018 you will not be covered by their 3rd part liability insurance.”
Saw this on the local event details....so clubs are already publishing this tosh!
So I rock up and say oh this is my 4th event, so what do I need to do? Here’s my £5 to run a light green....club volunteer at registration....uhhhh no idea have a nice run...
Or alternatively I have done 2 events at BOK, 2 at NGOC, 2 at SWOC etc. So the ONLY person who knows how many events I have done as a non club/BO member is me. And if I did go to my 7th club event what stops me giving a different name each time.
Just another unenforceable rule that BO have no idea how to fix or appetite to engage with.
Saw this on the local event details....so clubs are already publishing this tosh!
So I rock up and say oh this is my 4th event, so what do I need to do? Here’s my £5 to run a light green....club volunteer at registration....uhhhh no idea have a nice run...
Or alternatively I have done 2 events at BOK, 2 at NGOC, 2 at SWOC etc. So the ONLY person who knows how many events I have done as a non club/BO member is me. And if I did go to my 7th club event what stops me giving a different name each time.
Just another unenforceable rule that BO have no idea how to fix or appetite to engage with.
- PhilJ
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Re: Insurance
Nothing stopping you, but don't be surprised when the insurer fails to pay up to someone running under a false name!PhilJ wrote:what stops me giving a different name each time.
Just another unenforceable rule that BO have no idea how to fix or appetite to engage with.
- maprun
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Re: Insurance
? Why would IND care?
Pay who ?
For what?
Do you really think IND is going to get pulled into a some sort of “no win no fee” case.
Maybe every IND needs to bring a passport as proof of identity to each event and BO can hold them and publish them monthly to all clubs, all within GDPR of course.
Pay who ?
For what?
Do you really think IND is going to get pulled into a some sort of “no win no fee” case.
Maybe every IND needs to bring a passport as proof of identity to each event and BO can hold them and publish them monthly to all clubs, all within GDPR of course.
- PhilJ
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Re: Insurance
maprun wrote:Nothing stopping you, but don't be surprised when the insurer fails to pay up to someone running under a false name!PhilJ wrote:what stops me giving a different name each time.
Just another unenforceable rule that BO have no idea how to fix or appetite to engage with.
Except that if an incident has occurred and a third party is making a claim and the false name person caused the incident that is being claimed for, what happens now?
If the club can't identify the person due to the false name then the third party (landowner?) is going to claim against the club. But the club has not met the requirements of the insurance policy, so the policy is now invalid.
What happens now?
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