What sort of a map/course (picture) should they get to navigate with?.....
IMO why should they get a map/course that looks any different to the map that I would get to orienteer with. I need to explain.... If the event is targeted at this group of competitors (White & Yellow) then they should have a smaller and appropriate section of map (perhaps from the race map already being used by other more experienced runners on other courses) and drawn at an appropriate scale, perhaps 1:5000. There is no need to use a different symbol set (or enlarged). How to show the course? Just show the control sites with 6mm circles in exactly the same way as any other course. That way they end up with a picture to follow that is very similar to one they are going to get when they are much more experienced.
However, they should not get a course with 16mm+ circles, which overlap, obscure detail and very poorly define where the feature is (because the circle is so big).
ISOM2017 defines all these things.... but! The enlargement of symbols etc is defined for the 1:15 to 1:10 and for the 1:10 to 1:7,5 for those with 'poorer' eyesight (age related). There is absolutely nothing wrong with the eyesight of the White & Yellow competitors (generally speaking).
In general terms, then, along the lines I have outlined, you are providing a more readable & understandable picture for these competitors who are embarking on the start of their orienteering career. I think we need to address carefully how we provide this.
Maps for White & Yellow competitors
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
Agreed - I've posted on this before.
The British Schools Champs yesterday was a good example with 1:5000 enlarged scale maps for the younger age groups with massive control circles that inevitably overlapped in places.
As you say, for junior courses the maps aren't enlarged for eyesight reasons and using smaller circles would help where controls are necessarily positioned close together.
Any mapping committee types - who could comment or take this up with ISOM folk?
The British Schools Champs yesterday was a good example with 1:5000 enlarged scale maps for the younger age groups with massive control circles that inevitably overlapped in places.
As you say, for junior courses the maps aren't enlarged for eyesight reasons and using smaller circles would help where controls are necessarily positioned close together.
Any mapping committee types - who could comment or take this up with ISOM folk?
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buzz - addict
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
There is nothing wrong with their eyesight - and less need to take in the fine detail, but they do have smaller hands. So give them the same scale map as everybody else, but on a smaller sheet of paper so they can thumb the map more easily with less origami needed.
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
RJ wrote:Just show the control sites with 6mm circles in exactly the same way as any other course.
Do you have a lot of events on 1:12,500 scale maps round your way then?
Yes, ISOM 2017 specifies different circles sizes (and line thicknesses) for different scales: 5mm for 1:15000, 7.5mm for 1:10,000, etc., which gets a bit silly at 1:5,000 (and is also massively out-of-step with ISSOM) but AFAICS BOF rule 18.4 allows organisers to diverge from the spec as long as they tell competitors about it beforehand (which is what we did at the Scottish relays where we thought 10mm circles and .7mm red lines wouldn't be helpful) so would have thought that's the sensible option for any events using maps at 1:5000. [size=50](it's not as if BOF cares whether maps are to spec anyway)[/size]
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
buzz wrote:Agreed - I've posted on this before.
Just re-read the original post and realised I don't agree with RJ it at all! Apart from the bit about eyesight!
Drawing 1k loops in the corner of a 1:15,000 or 1:10,000 map is not ideal for younger kids. You wouldn't cram a kids reading book into a couple of sides of A4 just because their eyesight is good enough to see the letters. An enlarged section of the relevant area is far less intimidating for beginners.
One of the reasons why you should keep to short legs on a white/yellow is to minimise the amount of information the kids have to take in for each leg, just like the pages of a story book. But if the information is hidden beneath great thick lines and circles then the advantage is lost.
I would, however, be wary of clipping the map too close to the course and omitting useful landmarks or relocation features.
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buzz - addict
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
The first thing we do when we pick up an A4 map is to fold it so that we have a manageable sized map in our hand and we can reach our location with our thumbs. Typically this will need several adjustments to the folding as we proceed round the course. So by all means cut down the portion of map presented, put take advantage of that to offer them a physically smaller map that is easier for them to handle. If you feel the need to fill a sheet of A4 then use it to print a legend with a readable font that can be studied when they are planning their course beforehand, then folded behind when they start.
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
buzz wrote:Just re-read the original post and realised I don't agree with RJ it at all! Apart from the bit about eyesight!
Apologies for making my posting ambiguous for you. However, I totally agree with your reply and what you state, so it must just be a misunderstanding.
The essence of a White course is that they have controls to find, frequently and often within sight of the last one. They mustn't fail just because we have made the task difficult through the production of a poor picture. I raised this issue because the British Schools event at the weekend stuck to ISOM2017 guidelines and gave the White competitors a course with very dominant, thick 15mm diameter circles which overlapped in many places. (The vast majority of 'failures, mispunchings' are on the White/Yellow courses.) IMO this was not good, and I can't believe ISOM see this as an outcome that they would welcome. We orienteer on Urban maps at 1:5000 and sprint maps at 1:4000. The control circles aren't 15mm. We wouldn't accept that.
My point was that White and Yellow courses can happily be shown on 1:5000 maps of the area they are going to use with circles at 7.5mm (thanks Greywolf) and keeping control numbers (text) to about 18pt, although 16pt BOLD is a much better idea (IMO). I don't see why they can't have the same SORT of map/course picture that we normally orienteer with.
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
Most of the failures on the white courses at the school champs appear to be due to the rules specifying 4 different white courses. On a TD1 course there are NO decisions; the control should be sited to guide runners from the decision point onto the correct path towards the next control. This means it is not possible to have divergent TD1 courses so you shouldn't have more than 1 white course starting from the same start kite.
If you look at routegadget for the GY5 & BY5 courses:
https://www.pfo.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#117&course=1,5
You will see the first 2 controls in common. Then the boys should turn right, while the girls continue straight ahead to a very close control that was probably in sight. It is not surprising that some of the boys headed to the visible control rather than their correct course which appears to be through a courtyard and a gap between buildings. There is a similar issue at 7-8 where the girls turned right onto the main path, but the boys almost double back on themselves.
The scale of the map or size of the circles is not relevant here - if you are not expected to make any decisions then you should actually be able to complete the course without a map.
If you look at routegadget for the GY5 & BY5 courses:
https://www.pfo.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#117&course=1,5
You will see the first 2 controls in common. Then the boys should turn right, while the girls continue straight ahead to a very close control that was probably in sight. It is not surprising that some of the boys headed to the visible control rather than their correct course which appears to be through a courtyard and a gap between buildings. There is a similar issue at 7-8 where the girls turned right onto the main path, but the boys almost double back on themselves.
The scale of the map or size of the circles is not relevant here - if you are not expected to make any decisions then you should actually be able to complete the course without a map.
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
pete.owens wrote:Most of the failures on the white courses at the school champs appear to be due to the rules specifying 4 different white courses. On a TD1 course there are NO decisions; the control should be sited to guide runners from the decision point onto the correct path towards the next control.....
Pete I think you must be referring to TD0! BOF rules list the following skill for TD1 competitors: "Make decisions at ‘Decision Points’ identified by a control site."
pete.owens wrote: .....if you are not expected to make any decisions then you should actually be able to complete the course without a map.
I think you've identified the problem with your model, without decision making its clearly not orienteering!
Personally I think the practice of signposting the route by positioning the control on the correct path is unhelpful. It discourages map reading, causes confusion if the practice isn't consistent, and makes the step up to Yellow too big. Its better to use sad or smiley faces out of sight of the decision point so they only lose a bit of time for a bad decision.
I thought the British Schools courses were excellent (apart from the large circles). Hopefully coaches/parents will have explained that there were multiple white courses and encourage kids to read the map rather than follow or run to the first control they see.
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buzz - addict
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
Actually I am referring to Barry Elkington's excellent guidelines for planning the white course, which can be found on the BOF website:
https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/images/uploaded/downloads/planners_whitecourses.pdf
" ... the course should serve as a guided tour along the paths. The location of the control banner and punches should automatically guide competitors onto the right path for the next leg by being positioned in the direction of the next control. "
Which is consistent with earlier guidelines and recommended practice for as long as I can remember.
We can test our hypotheses by looking at the results:
If the mistakes were due to overlapping circles then you would expect the girls to mispunch at #3 - due to the proximity of the circles.
If the mistakes were due to seeing a path leading to a visible control on another course then you would expect the boys to mispunch.
You see the same for other mispunches. It is not the short legs where circles would overlap that see the mistakes, but the ones where different courses diverge. Indeed, the most common mispunch is actually #11 on the BY6 course which at 400m is about twice as long as you should see on a white course (possibly due to running for what seems like ages along an indistinct path across a field then spotting #12 a short distance to the left).
https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/images/uploaded/downloads/planners_whitecourses.pdf
" ... the course should serve as a guided tour along the paths. The location of the control banner and punches should automatically guide competitors onto the right path for the next leg by being positioned in the direction of the next control. "
Which is consistent with earlier guidelines and recommended practice for as long as I can remember.
We can test our hypotheses by looking at the results:
If the mistakes were due to overlapping circles then you would expect the girls to mispunch at #3 - due to the proximity of the circles.
If the mistakes were due to seeing a path leading to a visible control on another course then you would expect the boys to mispunch.
You see the same for other mispunches. It is not the short legs where circles would overlap that see the mistakes, but the ones where different courses diverge. Indeed, the most common mispunch is actually #11 on the BY6 course which at 400m is about twice as long as you should see on a white course (possibly due to running for what seems like ages along an indistinct path across a field then spotting #12 a short distance to the left).
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
As Controller for BSOC last Sunday I accept that the circle sizes were too large.
Having to create 4 different white and 4 different yellow courses for this event does lead to compromises in planning due to the number of control sites required. I had considered having the first 6 controls on White the same for all courses, but felt that the control between the buildings a fair alternative.
The only way to overcome the visibility of other control sites is to reduce the number of white & yellow courses. But then you move towards the danger of it becoming a cross country race. There were 100 white starters across a 120 minute start window.
Having to create 4 different white and 4 different yellow courses for this event does lead to compromises in planning due to the number of control sites required. I had considered having the first 6 controls on White the same for all courses, but felt that the control between the buildings a fair alternative.
The only way to overcome the visibility of other control sites is to reduce the number of white & yellow courses. But then you move towards the danger of it becoming a cross country race. There were 100 white starters across a 120 minute start window.
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
pete.owens wrote:Actually I am referring to Barry Elkington's excellent guidelines for planning the white course, which can be found on the BOF website:
https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/images/uploaded/downloads/planners_whitecourses.pdf
" ... the course should serve as a guided tour along the paths. The location of the control banner and punches should automatically guide competitors onto the right path for the next leg by being positioned in the direction of the next control. "
Which is consistent with earlier guidelines and recommended practice for as long as I can remember.
An excellent document indeed, apart from the paragraph you quote which contradicts the many paragraphs on decision making and map reading. If the kids aren't taking decisions based on the information on the map then its neither orienteering or a TD1 course.
Time for an update Barry? You could include the importance of grippling controls on the white course, smiley/sad faces, and perhaps even a TD0 standard with a reduced skill-set. Getting back on thread you could include something about larger map scales and the size of control circles.
I agree that its important to ensure a positive experience - getting badly lost can be very upsetting and certainly puts kids off the sport. However, I don't think mis-punching is as traumatic - the initial disappointment is more easily overcome, particularly if the child realises its their own mistake and learns what to do next time. One of the lads I coach was disqualified at his first British Schools Champs and has since won it twice!
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
pete.owens wrote:" ... the course should ...
It's a should. You don't have to do it, but if you don't you should have a good reason why not. It means the runners cannot rely on control position to pick their exit route. So they must try to navigate (which as buzz says, is the point) but by default it will probably work out. Its like light green planning where you take runners off path, but you pick legs where the natural line takes you to the flag (or a big catching feature). Or planning for older competitors where you compromise to make sure the best line is not too clambery or rough underfoot. You want these people to come back successfully. Elites, on the other hand...
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
I am sure that no child got lost because the circles were too big or the controls were grippled or not grippled to the nearest tree. From my observations the planner did an excellent job on what was a quite restricted area and the vast majority of children really enjoyed themselves.
The problem of having a control site where two courses diverge is not unique to this event. In fact quite often this situation occurs where White and Yellow courses have to go in different directions, and placing a control several meters down the path used by the White course is going to cause confusion to those on the Yellow.
The articles don't tackle this problem - they were intended as a way to try and help planners get courses that everyone was reasonably happy with.
If you start looking at the various options then:
1) If the control is at a tricky path junction with multiple or vague paths, where it is not easy to determine which path should be followed even for an adult, then the control should be placed in order to direct the competitor down the correct path. This means that it isn't a suitable control at which to split the courses.
2) If the control is at a very obvious junction where all the paths and tracks can be clearly seen and counted, for example coming off a small path onto a larger track at a T junction, then having the control placed in a neutral position such that it doesn't indicate which way to turn is a way to test that the competitor is at least doing some map reading. It still satisfies the requirement of having a control at the decision point, and furthermore provides a fair way of taking two courses in opposite directions.
These two examples are at the extremes of what you find in real life, and no written article can cover all the possibilities (at least one that is short enough for someone to want to read). This is where a planner's judgement enters into the equation, and it is actually stated in the rules that "The British School Championships requires a Planner who is experienced at planning good junior courses." Planning four white courses from the same start isn't easy, but with the right choice of start and finish locations can be done.
The problem of having a control site where two courses diverge is not unique to this event. In fact quite often this situation occurs where White and Yellow courses have to go in different directions, and placing a control several meters down the path used by the White course is going to cause confusion to those on the Yellow.
The articles don't tackle this problem - they were intended as a way to try and help planners get courses that everyone was reasonably happy with.
If you start looking at the various options then:
1) If the control is at a tricky path junction with multiple or vague paths, where it is not easy to determine which path should be followed even for an adult, then the control should be placed in order to direct the competitor down the correct path. This means that it isn't a suitable control at which to split the courses.
2) If the control is at a very obvious junction where all the paths and tracks can be clearly seen and counted, for example coming off a small path onto a larger track at a T junction, then having the control placed in a neutral position such that it doesn't indicate which way to turn is a way to test that the competitor is at least doing some map reading. It still satisfies the requirement of having a control at the decision point, and furthermore provides a fair way of taking two courses in opposite directions.
These two examples are at the extremes of what you find in real life, and no written article can cover all the possibilities (at least one that is short enough for someone to want to read). This is where a planner's judgement enters into the equation, and it is actually stated in the rules that "The British School Championships requires a Planner who is experienced at planning good junior courses." Planning four white courses from the same start isn't easy, but with the right choice of start and finish locations can be done.
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Re: Maps for White & Yellow competitors
The mole wrote:The problem of having a control site where two courses diverge is not unique to this event.
But having more than one white course is almost certainly unique to this particular event.
In fact quite often this situation occurs where White and Yellow courses have to go in different directions, and placing a control several meters down the path used by the White course is going to cause confusion to those on the Yellow.
The articles don't tackle this problem
They most certainly do, but it is in the guidelines for the yellow course:
https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/images/uploaded/downloads/planners_yellowcourses.pdf
There are a couple of map examples on the final page (neither of which involve the yellow competitors actually visiting the critical control)- The important thing is to ensure the consistency of the white course while using the extra skills of TD2 competitors to facilitate the divergence. Yellow competitors expect to make decisions and understand that not every kite is on their course.
You can certainly have divergent yellow courses, but if you want 4 different white courses you really need 4 different start kites. It is the competition rules that are the problem for effectively forcing these compromises on the planner.
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