There is a much simpler solution to this.
Get rid of the qualifying/final bit and just have the one individual race (like most other countries).
In the second time slot, have a sprint relay instead.
Easy!
British Sprints
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Re: British Sprints
Far too simple Arnold! It also gets around the dilemma of is it worth the journey for one short run.
- maprun
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Re: British Sprints
Back in the day (when I wrote the original rules) the then Elite Competition Group wanted a qualification round to simulate those found at major competitions. That's never going to be so useful in the September slot and never really worked anyway since there wasn't enough strength in depth to challenge the likely WOC runners in the heats.
Age class runners wanted their own competition but still liked the qualification aspect (I think they still do actually). From all of this the current format was born. I don't consider it broken, just cracking and in need of renovation.
Incidentally in the first running of the format in 2011 there were no C-finals (apart from the M Open). In a big class the top 16 made the A final the rest were all in the B. Made working out start times a little less complex.
We didn't have any problems in 2011 but then I did pay SportIdent a reasonable amount of money to provide a fully professional service - which they did.
Replacing the qualifying round with a sprint relay may actually mean that the significant number of competitors that "don't do relays" may not be tempted to travel for just one short run.
Age class runners wanted their own competition but still liked the qualification aspect (I think they still do actually). From all of this the current format was born. I don't consider it broken, just cracking and in need of renovation.
Incidentally in the first running of the format in 2011 there were no C-finals (apart from the M Open). In a big class the top 16 made the A final the rest were all in the B. Made working out start times a little less complex.
We didn't have any problems in 2011 but then I did pay SportIdent a reasonable amount of money to provide a fully professional service - which they did.
Replacing the qualifying round with a sprint relay may actually mean that the significant number of competitors that "don't do relays" may not be tempted to travel for just one short run.
- NeilC
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Re: British Sprints
Arnold wrote:Easy!
Why are you spoiling our fun with such sensible suggestions? And how do you propose to stop foreigners getting their dirty foreign paws on relay medals?
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Sprints
... and what happened to balanced heats on W Open ?
12 in heat 1, 17 in heat 2, 15 in heat 3.
Were the diuscrepancies all just "no shows" on the day ?
Heat 1 needed to be in top 50% to qualify; in Heat 2 it was approx. top 34%.
12 in heat 1, 17 in heat 2, 15 in heat 3.
Were the diuscrepancies all just "no shows" on the day ?
Heat 1 needed to be in top 50% to qualify; in Heat 2 it was approx. top 34%.
curro ergo sum
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King Penguin - addict
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Re: British Sprints
King Penguin wrote:Heat 1 needed to be in top 50% to qualify; in Heat 2 it was approx. top 34%.
on the other hand in heat 2 you needed to be within 2.49 of the winner to qualify, in heat 1 it was 4.34
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greywolf - addict
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Re: British Sprints
King Penguin wrote:... and what happened to balanced heats on W Open ?
12 in heat 1, 17 in heat 2, 15 in heat 3.
Were the diuscrepancies all just "no shows" on the day ?
Heat 1 needed to be in top 50% to qualify; in Heat 2 it was approx. top 34%.
No shows I guess...when I did the elite seeding I had the same number of people allocated to each Women's Open heat.
Why did I do that...
- Jon X
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Re: British Sprints
Personally, I quite like the heats+finals format, though just having two races and adding the times (like the SEOA sprint champs) would be OK as well.
But I foresee a problem that no-one's mentioned yet, and that's the interaction with the ranking algorithm. If a class is small (<20 entries), then there would be two finals with no more than 10 in each, hence a fair chance that neither would be ranked (see the discussion on the ranking algorithm here). Might it not be better not to have a separate "B" final in such cases?
But I foresee a problem that no-one's mentioned yet, and that's the interaction with the ranking algorithm. If a class is small (<20 entries), then there would be two finals with no more than 10 in each, hence a fair chance that neither would be ranked (see the discussion on the ranking algorithm here). Might it not be better not to have a separate "B" final in such cases?
- roadrunner
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Re: British Sprints
roadrunner wrote:ut I foresee a problem that no-one's mentioned yet, and that's the interaction with the ranking algorithm. If a class is small (<20 entries), then there would be two finals with no more than 10 in each, hence a fair chance that neither would be ranked (see the discussion on the ranking algorithm here). Might it not be better not to have a separate "B" final in such cases?
I don't understand the point you're making, but in any case the rankings works off courses not classes - in almost all cases a small class will be combined with other classes on the same course (so for example on saturday there were only 4 on M35B but they will get ranking points as they were on the same course as M50A and M55A)
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greywolf - addict
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Re: British Sprints
greywolf wrote:roadrunner wrote:ut I foresee a problem that no-one's mentioned yet, and that's the interaction with the ranking algorithm. If a class is small (<20 entries), then there would be two finals with no more than 10 in each, hence a fair chance that neither would be ranked (see the discussion on the ranking algorithm here). Might it not be better not to have a separate "B" final in such cases?
I don't understand the point you're making, but in any case the rankings works off courses not classes - in almost all cases a small class will be combined with other classes on the same course (so for example on saturday there were only 4 on M35B but they will get ranking points as they were on the same course as M50A and M55A)
Fair point, I'd forgotten that.
- roadrunner
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Re: British Sprints
I'm a bit puzzled by how the results are appearing on the BO website. Yesterday, all the finals results were there, but not the heats; today, it looks as if it's only the A finals (yet my own results still show the B final that I ran, I guess that's an updating issue). I thought both heats and (all) finals were separate ranking events - they certainly were for the last two years.
- roadrunner
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Re: British Sprints
roadrunner wrote:I'm a bit puzzled by how the results are appearing on the BO website. Yesterday, all the finals results were there, but not the heats; today, it looks as if it's only the A finals (yet my own results still show the B final that I ran, I guess that's an updating issue). I thought both heats and (all) finals were separate ranking events - they certainly were for the last two years.
They added an hour to the B and another to the C times.. .
It gets the results in the right order, but it might not work so well with the ranking points...
I'm very slow at the moment, but 76mins for a sprint course is a little extreme.
They also haven't figured out how to show that Laura is non-comp on the W21...
https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ ... &course=4& You can only work out who the women's champion is by looking at the podium picture.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Sprints
graeme wrote:roadrunner wrote:I'm a bit puzzled by how the results are appearing on the BO website. Yesterday, all the finals results were there, but not the heats; today, it looks as if it's only the A finals (yet my own results still show the B final that I ran, I guess that's an updating issue). I thought both heats and (all) finals were separate ranking events - they certainly were for the last two years.
They added an hour to the B and another to the C times.. .
It gets the results in the right order, but it might not work so well with the ranking points...
I'm very slow at the moment, but 76mins for a sprint course is a little extreme.
These results will be for the UKOL. One guesses that someone will be adding some more results (possibly in dummy events) to get the ranking points for the heats and finals.
graeme wrote:They also haven't figured out how to show that Laura is non-comp on the W21...
https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ ... &course=4& You can only work out who the women's champion is by looking at the podium picture.
Is Laura NC for ranking points and UKOL?
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Simon - brown
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Re: British Sprints
Simon wrote: Is Laura NC for ranking points and UKOL?
No, its only the British championships which have an exclusion rule on foreigners. Despite the best efforts of arnold and myself.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Sprints
Simon wrote:These results will be for the UKOL. One guesses that someone will be adding some more results (possibly in dummy events) to get the ranking points for the heats and finals.
Exactly that. And that "someone" is me.
As soon as Scott creates the dummy events, I'll be uploading the results to them for the purposes of ranking points calculations. Meanwhile, you'll see that both the Sprints and the Middles are now showing up in the UKOL points tables (races 17 and 18 of 20 this year).
Martin Ward, SYO (Chair) & SPOOK.
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