http://orienteering.org/woc-promotion-and-relegation/
Men relegated from Div 1 to Div 2
So what does this mean, less runners in each discipline for WOC 2018?
WOC Men's relegation
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
EDIT: Ignore me, see Arnold below
From the attackpoint thread pre-relay:
France came 2nd, we came 15th
I think it means we get 2 places for runners in each men's event, instead of the 3 we had previously
From the attackpoint thread pre-relay:
ColmM wrote:Div1 Relegation
France look pretty certain to go down. They trail GBR by 51pts, meaning their relay team need to beat GBR by 13 places, or finish in the top 5 (+ GB finish low). Realistically, probably only a MP can save them.
France came 2nd, we came 15th
I think it means we get 2 places for runners in each men's event, instead of the 3 we had previously
Last edited by JamesE on Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
Both men and women were quite at risk this year. The women did very well at WOC, staying in the First Division at the expense of France. But as you say the men are down to two runners in long and middle next year.
The scoring can be seen at https://docs.google.com/a/ucdconnect.ie ... sp=sharing
As you can see it was not really close.
The scoring can be seen at https://docs.google.com/a/ucdconnect.ie ... sp=sharing
As you can see it was not really close.
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
JamesE's attackpoint comments refer to the women - who indeed were not overtaken by France in the relay so stay up (well done them).
As afterthought shows the Men were already way down before the relay with Estonia the nearest competitor - I think they would have needed to finish 2nd in the Relay. France are 3rd in that ranking.
Shame but hopefully we can come back up next year.
As an aside I really like the way the Divisions solve the question of how to likit overall number of starters, while giving everyone a reasonably fair go. Well done Blair (and others).
As afterthought shows the Men were already way down before the relay with Estonia the nearest competitor - I think they would have needed to finish 2nd in the Relay. France are 3rd in that ranking.
Shame but hopefully we can come back up next year.
As an aside I really like the way the Divisions solve the question of how to likit overall number of starters, while giving everyone a reasonably fair go. Well done Blair (and others).
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
Arnold wrote:As an aside I really like the way the Divisions solve the question of how to likit overall number of starters, while giving everyone a reasonably fair go. Well done Blair (and others).
It doesn't give everyone a reasonably fair go. Not even close. The fairest system is competitive qualification races. It's quite ridiculous that the USA or Canada will have as many men as Russia in the forest finals next year simply because the North American champion gets a guaranteed spot. It's quite ridiculous that someone who takes 2 hours to finish the middle final is allowed directly into the final because he is the only entrant from his country. Or how about the Egyptian who spent more time off the map than he did on it on his way to the first control. I think he was timed out because he had taken too long as well. What an advert for the sport.
This system is utter bollocks. But it seems the IOF want to make the sport look more international in their futile and self-destructive quest for Olympic inclusion before they go into bankruptcy. However, allowing these "athletes" to participate has only highlighted how un-international the sport it. It has made a mockery of the finals.
It would be fairer to double the number of qualification entrants the top divisions are allowed, and perhaps increase the final to 60 runners.
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
Hopefully once we get the forest/urban split then the WOC races can go back to qualification races for each discipline (long, middle, sprint, ?urban clusterf**k? (whatever IOF decide to add to balance up race numbers).
This will solve the joke runner problem.
This will solve the joke runner problem.
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
I respectfully disagree. Every sport needs to balance letting the best compete with being open to all nations. For example skiing has 4 racers per top nation plus at least one from most others (with some pre qualification). The division system solves this quite well.
The Egyptian will get some local press for his efforts and will come back excited about orienteering, even if he couldn't find the first control, so I don't think we should stop that.
Still everyone has a chance of being in the top 8 nations and if we're not in there in 2018 then we need to train harder and be back in 2019.
The Egyptian will get some local press for his efforts and will come back excited about orienteering, even if he couldn't find the first control, so I don't think we should stop that.
Still everyone has a chance of being in the top 8 nations and if we're not in there in 2018 then we need to train harder and be back in 2019.
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
Arnold wrote:Every sport needs to balance letting the best compete with being open to all nations.
But how many sports allow so many joke "competitors" into their world champs? The qualification system and entry standards for the athletics world champs are here https://www.iaaf.org/competition/standards and whilst they do have a route for "unqualified athletes" it is one male or one female athlete in one event (and if that's field or road it's subject to approval by technical delegates).
Even when these places get taken up they are rarely completely useless - e.g. at the last world champs Jordan sent a 1500m runner who did 4.07 in his heat (but he has a 3.57 pb), Singapore sent a female 200m runner who did 24.22 (but she's run 23.60) - not world class but a lot closer than plenty who made it to WOC.
Last edited by greywolf on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
Arnold wrote:I respectfully disagree. Every sport needs to balance letting the best compete with being open to all nations. For example skiing has 4 racers per top nation plus at least one from most others (with some pre qualification). The division system solves this quite well.
The Egyptian will get some local press for his efforts and will come back excited about orienteering, even if he couldn't find the first control, so I don't think we should stop that.
Still everyone has a chance of being in the top 8 nations and if we're not in there in 2018 then we need to train harder and be back in 2019.
I think (although it wouldnt be the first time I was wrong in this) Mharky would be happy with the Egyptian runner running qualifying at WOC but his issue is the place direct in a final with no qualification. I must say I wasnt offended by the Egyptians presence but then I havent worked my arse off all year only to find out there;'s only two places for GB runners next year...
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
But what happens when (if) IOF gets 80 nations wanting to send teams to WOC - will each nation be allowed 1 runner in each discipline? - after all that would be great for world-wide publicity but make the races a complete joke with about 5-6 people running to win and the rest trying to find the first control.
Qualification is fair - it allows all nations to take part but also means the finals are between the best orienteers in the world, who have earned their place there.
Qualification is fair - it allows all nations to take part but also means the finals are between the best orienteers in the world, who have earned their place there.
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
I would love for Eygpt to qualify an athlete for a final. I personally congratulated the Turkish coach at JWOC middle final last year after their athlete made it to the a-final, what an achievement!
But as most people agree, I think a spot in the final needs to be earned. Our finals clearly have a finite number of athletes that can participate. We also need a way of seeding the final, as their is a rather obvious advantage to starting later. The qualification races are a great way for this. I'd say everyone gets 3, maybe the top nations get up to 6. Top 20 go through.
I have been knocked out of the A-final by a Croation at WOC, because he was better. I have myself knocked out a Swede (and WOC medalist) at their home European Champs, because I was better. In both instances, the better athlete on the day earned their spot in the final.
We also need a FAIR way of creating the final start list. Their is an undeniable advantage to starting late. Qualification races do this perfectly. Same as athletics, or swimming. Center lanes for the best athletes. However, using WR is massively unfair, it hands over a huge advantage to those athletes who can afford to go the the events with boosted WR scores.
But as most people agree, I think a spot in the final needs to be earned. Our finals clearly have a finite number of athletes that can participate. We also need a way of seeding the final, as their is a rather obvious advantage to starting later. The qualification races are a great way for this. I'd say everyone gets 3, maybe the top nations get up to 6. Top 20 go through.
I have been knocked out of the A-final by a Croation at WOC, because he was better. I have myself knocked out a Swede (and WOC medalist) at their home European Champs, because I was better. In both instances, the better athlete on the day earned their spot in the final.
We also need a FAIR way of creating the final start list. Their is an undeniable advantage to starting late. Qualification races do this perfectly. Same as athletics, or swimming. Center lanes for the best athletes. However, using WR is massively unfair, it hands over a huge advantage to those athletes who can afford to go the the events with boosted WR scores.
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
I completely agree with Mark. It was awesome to see a South African get a fully-deserved spot in the sprint final this year (tying with a WOC silver medalist to qualify).
It does thankfully look as though there will be some sort of qualification race at Forest-WOC so perhaps we can go back to ignoring an inaccurate ranking system soon. A shame that the unintended 'solution' is the pretty awful idea of splitting WOC up and making the sport even less comprehensible to everyone.
The silver lining is that I'm hugely looking forward to some extra head-to-head urban carnage.
It does thankfully look as though there will be some sort of qualification race at Forest-WOC so perhaps we can go back to ignoring an inaccurate ranking system soon. A shame that the unintended 'solution' is the pretty awful idea of splitting WOC up and making the sport even less comprehensible to everyone.
The silver lining is that I'm hugely looking forward to some extra head-to-head urban carnage.
Last edited by Little Hoddy on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
So will we see some elite Brits digging out the family tree to find Egyptian (or any country) grandparents, like many sports over the years, to get a run in WOC 2018? Much like Aaron cook who did not get selected for the GB tae Kwon do team so represented isle of man and Moldova at championships.
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
PhilJ wrote:Much like Aaron cook who did not get selected for the GB tae Kwon do team so represented isle of man and Moldova at championships.
That's a little different though. Not getting selected while being world #1 because of bureaucratic paper-pushers would make anyone drop their country like a stone.
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Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
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Re: WOC Men's relegation
You can turn this debate on its head and say is it fair that the Swedes only get 3 places for runners in the individual events? I'm pretty sure there are at least 10-20 Swedish men that would have beaten our best runner in the Long and Middle this year (given the chance to do some training in those forests). Why not an open qualification so truly the best orienteers in the world get to compete for a spot in the WOC final. Back at the end of the 90's in IFK we had 6 - 8 National Team runners from Sweden, Denmark, and GB, however we had at least 3 or 4 other Swedes just in IFK outside the National team that had the capacity to get a top 10-20 result at WOC - this was pretty obvious as we trained together almost everyday. I always felt sorry those lads being that good but never getting the chance.
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