I think that if a junior wants, without being pushed, to specialise or miss some races then it's fine and I agree with what Scotia is saying about the importance of mentally learning to put things on the line when it counts.
I'm worried that it can be bad for someone's development if they are overly encouraged or expected by the management/coaching team to specialise at this early stage though. (I have no idea how much pressure, if any, is applied to the athletes right now or whether they all came to their own conclusions).
My first JWOC Sprint I came 103rd, and really had no reason to believe I'd be much good in future compared to the Middle and Long. If I'd been told to drop a race for the following year there's no question I would have decided to drop the sprint and probably would never have come back to it.
There's no doubt that specialisation in my training has helped me in the sprint and relays in recent years as a senior, but I'm really glad that I wasn't encouraged to make any decisions on that as a junior.
Basically - let people do what they want
JWOC
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
Re: JWOC
Sorry, I should have added this too. Without being factual I think us Brits usually do do better when WOC and JWOC are in Scandinavia. We don't necessarily perform as well when its somewhere non-scandi or non-Brit terrain relevant ..... ie Hungary....
May I suggest that in order to produce similar or better results at next year's JWOC one promotes a few trips to Hungary as part of one's preparation (without detracting from producing technically well-rounded, robust athletes). We have good connections with Hungary that we could make use of...
May I suggest that in order to produce similar or better results at next year's JWOC one promotes a few trips to Hungary as part of one's preparation (without detracting from producing technically well-rounded, robust athletes). We have good connections with Hungary that we could make use of...
From small acorns great Oak trees grow.
-
Lard - diehard
- Posts: 675
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:19 pm
- Location: Dunblane
Re: JWOC
Also enjoying the thread, which I don't see as negative. It can only be helpful if, when people from outside the squad system query team selection, its explained,
Some random observations from 30 odd years observation (i.e. possibly out of date).
caveat: I'm not a coach, although I know a lot more know than I did when I was. I have made some attempts to point particular people at particular coaches, and when I did the thinking was not so much "is the coach any good" as "are these two people compatible"
The culture in athletics and orienteering is remarkably different. In athletics, the attitude is that "coach knows best". Look up athletics selections and the coach's name is as prominent as the athlete. Its not unusual for athletes to not even be told what the session is before they arrive. Orienteering has always been different with athletes driving the details of own training and elite coaches more like advisers. I think this caused a culture clash when we appointed Jackie from UKA and the squads "one-size-fits-all" attitude. One only has to compare housewife's buzzy contributions with scotia's Hymanesque outpourings to see this isn't going to work.
A key thing is most orienteers are smart people and can gather advice from many sources. Supposing Lard knows 10 useful things that I don't, while I know only 1 more. The athlete with the best coach can learn 10 things. The smart athlete can learn 11.
Some random observations from 30 odd years observation (i.e. possibly out of date).
caveat: I'm not a coach, although I know a lot more know than I did when I was. I have made some attempts to point particular people at particular coaches, and when I did the thinking was not so much "is the coach any good" as "are these two people compatible"
The culture in athletics and orienteering is remarkably different. In athletics, the attitude is that "coach knows best". Look up athletics selections and the coach's name is as prominent as the athlete. Its not unusual for athletes to not even be told what the session is before they arrive. Orienteering has always been different with athletes driving the details of own training and elite coaches more like advisers. I think this caused a culture clash when we appointed Jackie from UKA and the squads "one-size-fits-all" attitude. One only has to compare housewife's buzzy contributions with scotia's Hymanesque outpourings to see this isn't going to work.
A key thing is most orienteers are smart people and can gather advice from many sources. Supposing Lard knows 10 useful things that I don't, while I know only 1 more. The athlete with the best coach can learn 10 things. The smart athlete can learn 11.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
-
graeme - god
- Posts: 4723
- Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:04 pm
- Location: struggling with an pɹɐɔ ʇıɯǝ
Re: JWOC
Little Hoddy wrote:I'm worried that it can be bad for someone's development if they are overly encouraged or expected by the management/coaching team to specialise at this early stage though. (I have no idea how much pressure, if any, is applied to the athletes right now or whether they all came to their own conclusions).
I can state, for the record, that we do not expect or encourage specialisation in any particular discipline during their junior career. However, as you would expect, we do discuss with the individual athletes, both during the season and in their JWOC build up, how they are going to prepare to achieve success in various disciplines and where they feel their strengths currently lie. We then agree, between us, a tactical approach to optimising their overall performances during JWOC (or EYOC/JEC, where pertinent).
-
Strider - light green
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:42 pm
- Location: The Flat County
Re: JWOC
Lard wrote:May I suggest that in order to produce similar or better results at next year's JWOC one promotes a few trips to Hungary as part of one's preparation (without detracting from producing technically well-rounded, robust athletes). We have good connections with Hungary that we could make use of...
Absolutely agree - we're starting the ball rolling next month with our Pre-JWOC tour to Kescemet, to help begin their build-up to 2018, and we will be encouraging them to get out there as much as they can in the time between now and next July.
-
Strider - light green
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:42 pm
- Location: The Flat County
Re: JWOC
I can state, for the record, that we do not expect or encourage specialisation in any particular discipline during their junior career. However, as you would expect, we do discuss with the individual athletes, both during the season and in their JWOC build up, how they are going to prepare to achieve success in various disciplines and where they feel their strengths currently lie. We then agree, between us, a tactical approach to optimising their overall performances during JWOC (or EYOC/JEC, where pertinent).
Can we say in summary then that British Orienteering takes the stance that at JWOC the priority is to maximise good results in individual races over experience; and is felt that the best way to do this for the majority (10/12 of the British athletes at 2017) is for them to plan to sit out or not finish one or more of the races?
Its quite a different take on JWOC to all other nations. Time will tell which is right.
- housewife
- green
- Posts: 355
- Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:28 pm
- Location: probably at work
Re: JWOC
housewife wrote:Can we say in summary then that British Orienteering takes the stance that at JWOC the priority is to maximise good results in individual races over experience; and is felt that the best way to do this for the majority (10/12 of the British athletes at 2017) is for them to plan to sit out or not finish one or more of the races?
No, that is not the stance British Orienteering takes nor is it the approach of the Talent Development coaching team. I would be happy to discuss this further, on an individual basis, with you or anyone else who wishes to know more of the intricacies involved in our overarching strategy, and the factors involved in how this particular JWOC took shape.
-
Strider - light green
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:42 pm
- Location: The Flat County
Re: JWOC
Seems like this is the same discussion as took place last year!
Has the squad inaugural weekend disappeared from the calander? Surely that was the place for athletes (senior & junior) and coaches and BOF type people to sort out the strategy for the year ahead?
Has the squad inaugural weekend disappeared from the calander? Surely that was the place for athletes (senior & junior) and coaches and BOF type people to sort out the strategy for the year ahead?
Go orienteering in Lithuania......... best in the world:)
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
-
Gross - god
- Posts: 2693
- Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:13 am
- Location: Heading back to Scotland
Re: JWOC
Juniors should be actively encouraged to try a variety of disciplines to see where their strengths or interests lie - all agreed. I don't believe it needs to take 6 days of over racing at a JWOC to find this out. There are plenty other opportunities on the calendar for this. I also don't believe that if a junior chooses to focus on a specific race then this means they have chosen long term specialisation in that discipline.
It's not a development camp it is a World Champs where the aim is to perform to your very best and hopefully get a top result. Maximising experience ≠ over racing at JWOC.
In fact, you might want to take a look at the child protection part of the national coaching manual (or whatever it's called) before actively encouraging juniors to do so. I guess this is where the French policy is coming from.
Gross - mind when i got kicked out of ScotJOS for not doing all the races in the programme
It's not a development camp it is a World Champs where the aim is to perform to your very best and hopefully get a top result. Maximising experience ≠ over racing at JWOC.
In fact, you might want to take a look at the child protection part of the national coaching manual (or whatever it's called) before actively encouraging juniors to do so. I guess this is where the French policy is coming from.
Gross - mind when i got kicked out of ScotJOS for not doing all the races in the programme
-
Scotia - blue
- Posts: 493
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:44 pm
- Location: Edinburgh
Re: JWOC
I suspect that there is a strong correlation between the best results at JWOC/EYOC and those athletes who had spent time training in the relevant areas. Strider is correct to encourage athletes to visit Hungary ahead of next years JWOC in addition to the Official organised camp next month. Of course this all has to be self funded.
In relation to selection, it would seem a sensible approach to run selection races in similar terrain to that years JWOC. I'm not convinced that this years junior selection races (apart from BOC at High Dam) were a good indication of potential performance in Finland.
In relation to selection, it would seem a sensible approach to run selection races in similar terrain to that years JWOC. I'm not convinced that this years junior selection races (apart from BOC at High Dam) were a good indication of potential performance in Finland.
- RoT
- orange
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 8:14 am
Re: JWOC
At the JWOC banquet Paul had coaches from other teams that I overheard quizzing him on what they were doing so well as other nations noted the great results - so others are clearly trying to learn from the British approach so it's hard to criticise. However Paul didn't pick athlete's running a restricted programme as influential in the results they achieved - he praised the Edinburgh set up and Mark's role there as important (modesty prevented him commenting on his own role I guess). Alongside coaches wanting to learn the GB secrets, there were also coaches from other teams that were surprised by athlete's sitting out races, commenting that it was shortsighted... and while there were definitely illnesses during the week, there were also GB athletes who were unhappy to not be running particular races and this was presented by the athletes as not their choice (whether they was truly the case or that is just what they said to other juniors is hard to know). I am of the housewife camp of getting the experience, but between Scotia's arguments and the results of the week, I can't say I am 100% confident in my conviction. If there was one obvious answer, all teams would have worked it out already!
-
Toni - light green
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:37 pm
- Location: Loughborough
Re: JWOC
Develop talent; develop the attitudes and behaviours necessary for World Class performance at senior level. Quality planning, quality preparation, quality practice, prioritisation, quality performance and quality analysis.
I would argue running the full programme in the name of experience is short sighted. Take this philosophy and add in training camps and selection races and before you know it you have a burnt out athlete (ill, injured) and/or possible developing mental illness (watch out for the research which is in it's infancy!). BO as well as personal coaches have a duty of care and should certainly not be demonised if they are encouraging the juniors to skip some races.
Without knowing much about the other juniors Sasha was probably the only junior capable of running all those races at a decent level and even then, i would be surprised if it doesn't take him weeks (or more) to recover from. Someone of his caliber should be able to make the decision for himself to run all races (which obviously was allowed to happen) but there should be procedures in place to prevent the less developed juniors from going mental in the pick 'n' mix section (it seems there are).
I would argue running the full programme in the name of experience is short sighted. Take this philosophy and add in training camps and selection races and before you know it you have a burnt out athlete (ill, injured) and/or possible developing mental illness (watch out for the research which is in it's infancy!). BO as well as personal coaches have a duty of care and should certainly not be demonised if they are encouraging the juniors to skip some races.
Without knowing much about the other juniors Sasha was probably the only junior capable of running all those races at a decent level and even then, i would be surprised if it doesn't take him weeks (or more) to recover from. Someone of his caliber should be able to make the decision for himself to run all races (which obviously was allowed to happen) but there should be procedures in place to prevent the less developed juniors from going mental in the pick 'n' mix section (it seems there are).
-
Scotia - blue
- Posts: 493
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:44 pm
- Location: Edinburgh
Re: JWOC
The JWOC programme doesn't exactly encourage racing on fresh legs, with the races crammed into six days, with only one rest day. The 2016 programme had the long on the second day (sprint, long, rest, middle qual, middle final, relay) rather than the day before the relays as this year (middle qual, middle final, sprint, rest, long, relay). Having an extra rest day and not having the long and relay on consecutive days would help.
- maprun
- diehard
- Posts: 685
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:37 am
Re: JWOC
maprun wrote:The JWOC programme doesn't exactly encourage racing on fresh legs, with the races crammed into six days, with only one rest day. The 2016 programme had the long on the second day (sprint, long, rest, middle qual, middle final, relay) rather than the day before the relays as this year (middle qual, middle final, sprint, rest, long, relay). Having an extra rest day and not having the long and relay on consecutive days would help.
It is, undoubtedly, a very challenging programme for junior athletes. My preferred schedule, which mirrors the evolution of WOC, would be to extend it by a day, to allow more recovery, and replace the middle qualification with a mixed sprint relay, so that the programme looks something like this: sprint, MSR, rest, long, rest, middle, relay.
-
Strider - light green
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:42 pm
- Location: The Flat County
Re: JWOC
RoT wrote:In relation to selection, it would seem a sensible approach to run selection races in similar terrain to that years JWOC. I'm not convinced that this years junior selection races (apart from BOC at High Dam) were a good indication of potential performance in Finland.
Absolutely. In fact unsurprisingly there was a strong correlation between performances at High Dam and those at JWOC and yet the selectors chose to give equal emphasis to sub-standard races at the JK. They even managed to contrive not to select the British Champion in W20E. I would be less concerned about specific relevance of the terrain, but I think its important that the selection races are of high quality and a proper test of physical, mental and technical abilities.
To oblivion and beyond....
-
buzz - addict
- Posts: 1196
- Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:45 pm
- Location: Sheffield
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests