What are the rules regarding athletes crossing "forbidden to cross" features in sprint races, specifically in situations where the athlete realises their mistake, retraces their steps back onto 'legal' ground, thus gaining no advantage?
I have asked this question in many Team Leaders meetings at IOF events (JWOC, EYOC, WUOC) and have been told conflicting answers. The most common answer is that the act of crossing such features is a disqualifiable offence regardless of what happens afterwards, be it an ilegal short-cut, or retracing their steps to get back on track. However, I have also been told that the 'spirit of fair play' should be upheld, and if an athlete corrects their infringement then there would be no punishment. I can only remember being told this once or maybe twice, with probably all the other times being instant DSQ.
On Thursday, during an EYOC TLM, an IOF event adviser told me "It must be according to the rules, and so if they cross such a feature they are always DSQ". Fair enough, the rules do read this way.
On Saturday Daniel Hubman won the World Championships with such a violation.
So what is the rule?
Incidently, I have also been told by by and IOF SEA that control codes can't be printed on maps because it is against the rules, but MSR at WOC 2015 did just that.
I have also been told by an IOF SEA a completely ficticous rules that is not in any IOF documentation, when asked about where this rule was stated, he asked "why do you have a personal vendetta against me?", before making a u-turn on the "rule"...
ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
I don't know but the problem is that 9 times out of 10 these incidents occur when there is some conflict between the map and the ground. E.g. The barrier is missing. Most folk would support some sort of leeway in a no benefit situation such as Saturday but it's hard when IOF shows no leeway with other issues (cf Hollie mp)
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
Maybe Hubmann is too big a name to disqualify, or maybe the SEA is an utter arse who's more concerned about protecting his reputation than checking the map and ground correspond and that rules are applied equally and without favour...
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
It looked like 4th placer Kyburz did as well, although the TV cuts away at the instant he is crossing the line on the map.
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
mharky wrote:On Saturday Daniel Hubman won the World Championships with such a violation.
Just to be clear, do you mean on the exit from #14 as at 2.20 in this clip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRZEL5Gf07Q&feature=youtu.be&t=2m20s
given that the map (blown up, obv) looked like this,
and that the exact edge of the olive green doesn't appear to be marked in the terrain, it would be pretty difficult to be absolutely sure that he crossed into the forbidden area.
It is however clear this was sh1te mapping / planning / controlling, as was the non standard use of olive green to obscure a road on the way to #1
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greywolf - addict
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
I think it was the route from 9 to 10. Just after leaving 9 instead of passing through the western gap between the buildings they crossed the temporary uncrossable feature in the road to the east.
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
The place in question was one of the fenced off streets just SE of 9 on the men's course. The problem was that it wasn't fenced off properly. (As DaveHH says)
http://news.worldofo.com/2017/07/01/woc-2017-sprint-maps-and-results/
http://news.worldofo.com/2017/07/01/woc-2017-sprint-maps-and-results/
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
aha - so more sh1te mapping / planning / controlling
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
I believe that the "fair play" rule takes precedence over others. It means the jury has some flexibility to look at the facts. When I did my Grade 1 controller "course" with Gareth BJ, the only thing we discussed was how much flexibility it offered.
In this case, it wasn't entirely Hubmann's fault. AFAIK, the route wasn't blocked off, the mapped "fence" he crossed didn't exist on the ground and other runners were told not to go that way.
FWIW, I think its the right decision. Hubmann didn't gain time, he showed he was the best runner on the day, and a race where the fastest runner gets DQed on an organisers error is likely to get voided. The runners who didn't turn back didn't trouble the podium, which was lucky for the SEA.
mharky - Welcome to the personal vendetta club
And yes, we did DQ Hubmann at Race the Castles.
In this case, it wasn't entirely Hubmann's fault. AFAIK, the route wasn't blocked off, the mapped "fence" he crossed didn't exist on the ground and other runners were told not to go that way.
FWIW, I think its the right decision. Hubmann didn't gain time, he showed he was the best runner on the day, and a race where the fastest runner gets DQed on an organisers error is likely to get voided. The runners who didn't turn back didn't trouble the podium, which was lucky for the SEA.
mharky - Welcome to the personal vendetta club
And yes, we did DQ Hubmann at Race the Castles.
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
greywolf wrote:aha - so more sh1te mapping / planning / controlling
Nope. It was a map correction, and the responsibility isn't with the planner/controller it's with..
31.6 The IOF Event Adviser shall ensure that rules are followed, mistakes are
avoided and that fairness is paramount.
( IOF Senior Event Adviser: Jørn Sundby )
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
greywolf wrote:
given that the map looked like this.....and that the exact edge of the olive green doesn't appear to be marked in the terrain
This particular example seemed okay on the ground, all of the olive green in that excerpt was taped off and there was no way to get out of the control to the north. Maybe 50% of the women I watched there tried to exit that way to run along to the last control, then had to stop and check the map when they saw there was no way through.
Why did I do that...
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
At control 14, there was tape blocking the straight exit from the control. Most of the olive on the map were areas taped off artificially by the organisers, but this was not consistently mapped
- in this extract for example, there is a path to the right of the statue as well as the left but this route was taped off. However, the OOB screen seen in this extract was also a taped off section, with two lines of tape defining the border of the screen area.
The mapping of olive in this way was pretty confusing (I'm pretty sure it was talked about in the pre-event details so they should have known but I heard a few of even the top athletes saying they were surprised with what they saw on the ground compared to the map). For example here, on the ground that large olive block is the same as the rest of the square, open with scattered trees, but it had tape round it, so it was olive.
In the case of Hubmann, he ran through a section of the map marked with an impassable wall and OOB screen - apparently the barrier wasn't there, I can't comment because I didn't see that part of the course on the day.
- in this extract for example, there is a path to the right of the statue as well as the left but this route was taped off. However, the OOB screen seen in this extract was also a taped off section, with two lines of tape defining the border of the screen area.
The mapping of olive in this way was pretty confusing (I'm pretty sure it was talked about in the pre-event details so they should have known but I heard a few of even the top athletes saying they were surprised with what they saw on the ground compared to the map). For example here, on the ground that large olive block is the same as the rest of the square, open with scattered trees, but it had tape round it, so it was olive.
In the case of Hubmann, he ran through a section of the map marked with an impassable wall and OOB screen - apparently the barrier wasn't there, I can't comment because I didn't see that part of the course on the day.
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
the olive green area by #14 has a thin black line along the SE edge indicating a pavement edge (or distinct cultivation boundary) which doesn't exist
You should know by now that SEA are above petty notions of fairness and responsibility
(but does the SEA have access to the OCAD file to draw a wall that doesn't exist?)
graeme wrote:It was a map correction, and the responsibility isn't with the planner/controller it's with..
31.6 The IOF Event Adviser shall ensure that rules are followed, mistakes are
avoided and that fairness is paramount.
( IOF Senior Event Adviser: Jørn Sundby )
You should know by now that SEA are above petty notions of fairness and responsibility
(but does the SEA have access to the OCAD file to draw a wall that doesn't exist?)
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
Raises an interesting question: an "uncrossable barrier" can certainly be physically crossable (e.g. a low wall), but does there have to be something physical there? The map extract that JamesE posted (control shows an OOB area of a street with no barrier symbol, which I would guess must have been taped because it would have been impossible to know where the boundary was otherwise.
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Re: ISSOM and "forbidden to cross" features
It only has to be taped if it has a solid line around it.
Re. Hubmann; I was talking about leg 9-10
It's good to see that organisers are now showing OOB purple stripes behind solid black lines across streets. They are such an unnatural feature that they are very hard to see when map reading at speed.
Re. Hubmann; I was talking about leg 9-10
It's good to see that organisers are now showing OOB purple stripes behind solid black lines across streets. They are such an unnatural feature that they are very hard to see when map reading at speed.
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