For background, this suggestion was raised during the March Director's Teleconference, see minutes below.
https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ ... rch%20(002).pdf
The matter was further explained on page 3 of The 50th Anniversary Focus, see below.
https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ ... %20Ozone(2).pdf
It seems to me the biggest issue has been securing unequivocal land permission for the events in question. Something our sport has had to do deal with at all events in the past. I'm sure there are lessons that can be learned from the recent near misses, rather than resorting to a knee jerk reaction to avoid the risk that a day might have to be cancelled at late notice during a multi-day event.
IMO the benefits of the events far outweighs the risks, on a financial basis and in meeting BOF's vision of more people, more places, more podiums. In MH's own highlighted words on page 10 of Focus, "Our challenge for the future is to expand our capacity..." Sadly merging these events would have the opposite effect.
Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Championships
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Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Championships
Last edited by maprun on Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- maprun
- diehard
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
Plenty of landowners won't sign anything until the last moment - they probably stick it in a pile of papers and don't bother looking until the date of the event nears, they will have no understanding (or interest) of the amount of work needed to produce an event on their land and so haven't the slightest concern about the problems their laziness causes users.
- Big Jon
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
So I read the article in Focus and the board minutes. I'm pleased to see that Mike Hamilton is welcoming debate.
So what do people want? Personally I like having both the JK and the British. They are currently the only times of the year when most people turn up. To reduce that down to one weekend would be a big shame. I would like to think that the vast majority would think likewise?
I was surprised to hear that this year no club or region could be found to host the middles. Although I guess you can read between the lines that it was the associations turn to host it and at the associations fixtures meeting they agreed who would be doing it...
I can imagine that there are risks and as Big Jon says it is never going to be a huge priority for a landowner to sign an agreement. They have probably said yes it is fine and for them that is enough. You could mitigate the risk with a backup area - perhaps we already do - which would be used by the club / association at a later time if not needed. I guess a bit like day 3 of the JK this year.
I would like to think that the various clubs and associations can come up with a proposal that would be able to keep the current format.
Personally I think that the role of major events coordinator is a worthwhile one but you have to have the right person, how easy it is to get that person and what their skills and experience should be is of course a big question. However having continuity between all these events is important. It would make the event organisers job easier and remove some of the stress whilst also ensure everything has been thought about.
All these events that we talk about that we need to compete with - adventure races, obstacle races etc. - do you think that for each event they get a brand new set of people in to organise it? They do what they do very well because they learn from each event. I totally support associations and clubs taking on these events but they should have the support of at least someone or even a group of people who has been there and done it multiple times before.
So what do people want? Personally I like having both the JK and the British. They are currently the only times of the year when most people turn up. To reduce that down to one weekend would be a big shame. I would like to think that the vast majority would think likewise?
I was surprised to hear that this year no club or region could be found to host the middles. Although I guess you can read between the lines that it was the associations turn to host it and at the associations fixtures meeting they agreed who would be doing it...
I can imagine that there are risks and as Big Jon says it is never going to be a huge priority for a landowner to sign an agreement. They have probably said yes it is fine and for them that is enough. You could mitigate the risk with a backup area - perhaps we already do - which would be used by the club / association at a later time if not needed. I guess a bit like day 3 of the JK this year.
I would like to think that the various clubs and associations can come up with a proposal that would be able to keep the current format.
Personally I think that the role of major events coordinator is a worthwhile one but you have to have the right person, how easy it is to get that person and what their skills and experience should be is of course a big question. However having continuity between all these events is important. It would make the event organisers job easier and remove some of the stress whilst also ensure everything has been thought about.
All these events that we talk about that we need to compete with - adventure races, obstacle races etc. - do you think that for each event they get a brand new set of people in to organise it? They do what they do very well because they learn from each event. I totally support associations and clubs taking on these events but they should have the support of at least someone or even a group of people who has been there and done it multiple times before.
- peteT
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
I was surprised to hear that this year no club or region could be found to host the middles.
Request to clubs: "Please find an area suitable for a middle distance race in September that isn't overgrown with bracken / brambles".
Moving the date of the Sprint/Middle weekend to the Autumn was always going to give problems finding somewhere to stage the Middle race, and given the complaints in the past it is hardly surprising that no club wanted to take it on.
- SJC
- diehard
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
peteT wrote:All these events that we talk about that we need to compete with - adventure races, obstacle races etc.
These kind of events have considerably less races than orienteering does, more of a festival atmosphere, more fun along with the competition? Perhaps we should be cutting out a lot of the level C events and introduce more A's and B's with a focus on quality competition and compliment with local training.
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
- andy
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
I have a lot of thoughts about the merger suggestion - most of which are negative! But whilst I try and marshal them into a calm and logical format one thought immediately springs to mind. If everything is merged at Easter that would move the dates of the Middle/Sprints from Autumn to Spring - the opposite direction to which they have just been moved. And one of the reasons put forward for mega-consolidation is the problem of finding someone to put them on in the Autumn! If it was important to move them to the Autumn why use it as a form of excuse to now propose the opposite - or am I just getting cynical in my old age?
- Slowtochide
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
SJC wrote:Moving the date of the Sprint/Middle weekend to the Autumn was always going to give problems finding somewhere to stage the Middle race, and given the complaints in the past it is hardly surprising that no club wanted to take it on.
Exactly so. Says the controller for next year's middle, which will of course be fantastic - because the people have spoken and its our responsibility to deliver on that
But a daft idea like "middle in September" shouldn't be allowed to drag down a good idea like "sprint in September". Especially now it could be combined with new disciplines like sprint relay, "whatever gimmick IoF dream up for Urban WOC", or even something popular like urban racing. If BOF tried to find clubs to organise a "British Urban Championships" weekend in September, they'd be queueing round the block.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
Soubds like a good idea Graeme. If you could convince them to bave normal Sprint courses for elites, urbans for vets, and whatever it is U16s are allowed to do for them.
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
Slowtochide wrote:I have a lot of thoughts about the merger suggestion - most of which are negative! But whilst I try and marshal them into a calm and logical format one thought immediately springs to mind. If everything is merged at Easter that would move the dates of the Middle/Sprints from Autumn to Spring - the opposite direction to which they have just been moved. And one of the reasons put forward for mega-consolidation is the problem of finding someone to put them on in the Autumn! If it was important to move them to the Autumn why use it as a form of excuse to now propose the opposite - or am I just getting cynical in my old age?
I agree that moving everything to the JK is a retrograde step, possibly the problem is the proliferation of "British Championships" - it used to be an individual and a relay, now it is long, relay, middle, sprint, sprint relay, night, talk of an urban etc. Moving some of these to the autumn (when many nations hold their national championships) would free up space. if the autumn is not so good for English forests (plenty in Scotland that are great then) then it surely makes sense to move the sprint/sprint relay weekend to this date.
So proposal:
Nights and middle - early spring (darkness for nights and undergrowth down for middle for fairness).
JK at Easter (shame Easter is such a crazy moveable date...)
BOC long and relays in early summer
Scottish Championships soon after
Sprint w/e autumn.
That makes 5 "National level" weekends in a year - surely not too many for organising or attending?
- Big Jon
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
I like the idea, particularly the pairing of the nights and the middle that both appeal to orienteers who prefer a technical challenge. Plus it ought to result in an increased turnout for the night champs.Big Jon wrote:So proposal:
Nights and middle - early spring (darkness for nights and undergrowth down for middle for fairness).
JK at Easter (shame Easter is such a crazy moveable date...)
BOC long and relays in early summer
Scottish Championships soon after
Sprint w/e autumn.
That makes 5 "National level" weekends in a year - surely not too many for organising or attending?
- maprun
- diehard
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
andy wrote:Perhaps we should be cutting out a lot of the level C events and introduce more A's and B's with a focus on quality competition and compliment with local training.
The exact opposite andy. It is precisely the level Ds and Cs that bring the new participation into the sport, where these new folk learn the skills of the sport. IMHO it is the proliferation of level A events that drags the volunteer effort away from these 'base level' events. Championship events are really only of interest to a very small proportion of the orienteering fraternity..... those that are likely to get their names on the various trophies. The vast bulk of the start list are those who want a good race in a nice forest. That does not have to be at a titled event (Middle Championships) but can be a regional fixture.
The ranking list is even generated from participation at those level C events. And IMHO the ranking list means more than 42nd place at the JK.
- RJ
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
Is the answer to both RJ and andy that the problem lies with the events in the middle? (and the work and effort put into those)
Do we need a lot of high quality local events (which dependent on where they are and what they are aiming to do anyone can attend if they so wish) and then a small number of high quality national events? (the ones mentioned JK; British x 5; Scottish Champs plus the multi day events)
I do like the idea of linking the nights and the middle champs You could even go Middle Qualification on Saturday (not a full length middle); Nights on Saturday Night and Middle Final on Sunday if you so wished (I appreciate that could add more work - pick the right area and it could be straightforward)
I also like the sprints weekend. Sprint Qual on the Saturday. MSR Saturday evening and Sprint Final on the Sunday
Do we need a lot of high quality local events (which dependent on where they are and what they are aiming to do anyone can attend if they so wish) and then a small number of high quality national events? (the ones mentioned JK; British x 5; Scottish Champs plus the multi day events)
I do like the idea of linking the nights and the middle champs You could even go Middle Qualification on Saturday (not a full length middle); Nights on Saturday Night and Middle Final on Sunday if you so wished (I appreciate that could add more work - pick the right area and it could be straightforward)
I also like the sprints weekend. Sprint Qual on the Saturday. MSR Saturday evening and Sprint Final on the Sunday
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eddie - [nope] cartel
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
I think the issue lies with the rotation principle.
While in theory that's a great idea, in practice that means that you have to "force" the event on some people who don't necessarily want it in the first place.
In some other countries, it works on an application basis (like WOC) - so anyone can "apply" to hold certain races eg British Sprints / Middle. On the plus side this means that people who apply are keen to do it and should deliver a good event because they're motivated. On the minus side (also just like WOC) you might end up with no offers, or hold races in the same part of the country over and over again. But you can guard against the former by making it attractive to hold the event (eg money), and the latter is just tough no? If only Scotland wants to organise the Middle/Sprint weekend each year well then it'll be there each year.
So should we not move to an application system at least for BOCs?
On a separate note I also think there are too many "secondary but important" events which take effort and focus away from the main events - eg Home Internationals, Regional Championships
While in theory that's a great idea, in practice that means that you have to "force" the event on some people who don't necessarily want it in the first place.
In some other countries, it works on an application basis (like WOC) - so anyone can "apply" to hold certain races eg British Sprints / Middle. On the plus side this means that people who apply are keen to do it and should deliver a good event because they're motivated. On the minus side (also just like WOC) you might end up with no offers, or hold races in the same part of the country over and over again. But you can guard against the former by making it attractive to hold the event (eg money), and the latter is just tough no? If only Scotland wants to organise the Middle/Sprint weekend each year well then it'll be there each year.
So should we not move to an application system at least for BOCs?
On a separate note I also think there are too many "secondary but important" events which take effort and focus away from the main events - eg Home Internationals, Regional Championships
- Arnold
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
Just to say that this thread touches on a number of topics that we'll be reviewing where it comes to the SOA calendar. Various points have been added to lists, all very useful.
- Rosine
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Re: Merging the JK, BOC Long/Relay & Middle/Sprint Champions
eddie wrote:I do like the idea of linking the nights and the middle champs You could even go Middle Qualification on Saturday (not a full length middle); Nights on Saturday Night and Middle Final on Sunday if you so wished (I appreciate that could add more work - pick the right area and it could be straightforward)
Would there be a reduction in the number of people doing the British Nights because of saving themselves for the middle?
Slightly concerned that the proposal would mean a definite 3 British weekends plus the JK rather than the current 2 (3 if you want to do the nights) plus JK.
changing the allocation of events from rotating around the regions to a 'bid' would be OK but I feel there would definitely need to be some control over spreading them around the country each year.
- peteT
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